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mistermasan
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Location: 10+ yrs on Dave's ESL cafe
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: did US know Japan attack was forthcoming circa 1941? |
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did the US know a Japanese attack was forthcoming in 1941? i was taught as an undergrad in the university of hawaii that the US baited japan into striking first. it is stunning that people still assert that the US was an innocent that got rolled in this one.
www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
recounts the research done by a guy who first fought the war and then later via the FOIA act it delved into it.
plausible deniability must always be preserved. |
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saw6436
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon, ROK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Current Events Forum! Posting an article from 2002, about an event from 60 years ago, doesn't really make a-lot of sense. Track down regicide and make foil hats or something. |
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loose_ends
Joined: 23 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| saw6436 wrote: |
| Current Events Forum! Posting an article from 2002, about an event from 60 years ago, doesn't really make a-lot of sense. Track down regicide and make foil hats or something. |
It is very relevant for today.
Thanks mistermasan! |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: did US know Japan attack was forthcoming circa 1941? |
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| mistermasan wrote: |
did the US know a Japanese attack was forthcoming in 1941? i was taught as an undergrad in the university of hawaii that the US baited japan into striking first. it is stunning that people still assert that the US was an innocent that got rolled in this one.
www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408
recounts the research done by a guy who first fought the war and then later via the FOIA act it delved into it.
plausible deniability must always be preserved. |
Because of the lack of a History Forum, you really didn't have anywhere else to post it, did you? I think it is fine right here, and very relevant.
I think a thorough look at how the U.S. and the evil FDR basically boxed Japan in economically and then waited for a military response speaks volumes. FDR's big government, creating jobs out of thin air, social welfare package just wasn't getting the country back on track economically. He needed a war...but wasn't stupid like W., he just created the conditions and left Japan no other choice. Then, SHAZAM!, instant economic recovery package and the US only had to lose 2350 people while FDR and the government looked the other way literally waiting for the bombs to drop. The end justifies the means, right? |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Pearl Harbor |
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Funny how those carriers were all out of port though, huh? |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Pearl Harbor |
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Yeah, I read that. But you can't quickly win a war, with 2 aircraft carriers, & no aircraft to land on them?
The dispute with Japan goes back to the sinking of the Panay in China. In retaliation, the US slapped trade embargoes on Japan, with the exception of much needed oil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panay_incident
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| The Japanese claimed that they did not see the United States flags painted on the deck of the gunboat, apologized, and paid an indemnity. Nevertheless, the attack and the subsequent Allison incident in Nanjing caused U.S. opinion to turn against the Japanese. |
Re the bolded text in the above quote, the Japanese also claimed they didn't see the large green stripe & cross, on the hospital ship Centaur.
[img]http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/ww2/anecdotes/images/centaur01.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.angellpro.com.au/centaur.JPG[/img]
AHS Centaur
http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/ww2/overview/ww2-05.html (AWM)
A blind bat could see that cross.
This shameful incident occurred just off the coast, of my hometown of Brisbane, in 1943, which became the US South Pacific HQ, following the fall of Manila.
http://www.angellpro.com.au/centaur.htm
Last edited by chris_J2 on Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Pearl Harbor |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Yeah, I read that. But you can't quickly win a war, with 2 aircraft carriers, & no aircraft to land on them? |
Who said FDR wanted to win the war quickly? Remember, he had a country that needed economic stimuli and building warships employs a lot of people not to mention the planes, tanks, bombs, etc. that were needed for a prolonged war. While its not much, 2 carriers certainly makes a great nucleus to build a fleet around. |
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Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| I was under the impression that in the historical community it was accepted that the US government knew about the attack but delayed notification. I'm surprised there's still any debate. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| I was under the impression that in the historical community it was accepted that the US government knew about the attack but delayed notification. I'm surprised there's still any debate. |
huh? you mean knew about the planned attack? The way you have it phrased there is the us gov't knew it was being attacked, then waited to to tell people the country was being attacked.
as in: Mr President, we're presently being bombed.
ok Bob, we'll let US citizens know in a little bit.
I'm guessing that's not what you meant. |
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regicide
Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Czarjorge wrote: |
| I was under the impression that in the historical community it was accepted that the US government knew about the attack but delayed notification. I'm surprised there's still any debate. |
I was under the same impression concerning the Kennedy Assassination until I wrote about it on this forum. Eighty percent of the american people know there was a conspiracy in that matter--there is really no need to "debate" it.
I still remain amazed that the 10 people on the whole earth who believe otherwise are on this very forum.
And I am very unimpressed with the herd mentality that thrives here--by so called educators.
saw6436 is an example--and a whiner to boot!
| saw6436 wrote: |
| Current Events Forum! Posting an article from 2002, about an event from 60 years ago, doesn't really make a-lot of sense. Track down regicide and make foil hats or something. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: |
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When there is an immensely popular president, but your own political ideas come from the lunatic fringe, you attack by insinuation, innuendo and any other backdoor way you can think of to try to destroy his reputation. You don't have to prove anything. Just smear.
The allegation is: FDR and a fair number of other administration figures were traitors to their country.
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Czarjorge wrote: |
| I was under the impression that in the historical community it was accepted that the US government knew about the attack but delayed notification. I'm surprised there's still any debate. |
huh? you mean knew about the planned attack? The way you have it phrased there is the us gov't knew it was being attacked, then waited to to tell people the country was being attacked... |
I had the same reaction when I read this.
Most historians believe this: the information that an attack was likely to occur existed. But for it to have reached the President as a coherent and meaningful warning would have required Military and Naval Intelligence units to speak to each other. And this they did not do before the National Security Act 1947.
If you read the 9/11 Commission Report, you will find that these bureaucratic faultlines, as the committee calls them, continued to exist through the early-twenty-first century. The American govt tried to correct this once-and-for-all with a new national intelligence collator, Homeland Security's National Intelligence Director, with a staff of fifteen-hundred or so, I believe. Reports to the President via Michael Chertoff, who holds the cabinet-level position only one Director of Central Intelligence ever did throughout the entire Cold War.
Time will tell if it works. In my opinion, bureaucracy is bureaucracy and there is little to do about it. Unless you are Stalin, of course. |
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nicholas_chiasson
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Location: Samcheok
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:40 am Post subject: |
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-er...Japan...a country that had been military expanding since the Russo-Japanese War in the advent of the 20th century, had invaded Manchuria, and Korea, and was obviously posed to attack the phillipines and SE Asia, was FORCED into a war?
-the Seminole Indians were forced into a war, the Japanese started what they couldn't finish. And Pearl Harbor WAS a disater for the US navy. No way around it. It could have been a fatal disaster if the carriers had been in port, but they were not. COnsidering we had superior intelligence, we were lucky to win at all. To argue that FDR was evil for the second World War is illogical. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
When there is an immensely popular president, but your own political ideas come from the lunatic fringe, you attack by insinuation, innuendo and any other backdoor way you can think of to try to destroy his reputation. You don't have to prove anything. Just smear.
The allegation is: FDR and a fair number of other administration figures were traitors to their country. |
I don't know if I would use traitor, but it comes close. I'm not convinced that FDR knew a date and time for the Pearl Harbor attack, but I am convinced he played ball to force Japan to retaliate. Although I can't recall where I read it, there is also some evidence that the evil FDR knew that the Japanese fleet was coming toward Hawaii from the north and basically did nothing. Whether that constitutes being a traitor...well, he did have an economy to salvage, didn't he? |
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