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Oh, those paternalistic, sexist Democrats again...

 
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject: Oh, those paternalistic, sexist Democrats again... Reply with quote

Arlen Spector, condescending to Michelle Bachman, wrote:
...act like a lady!


Quote:
Washington -- A heated political debate and charges of sexism erupted on Philadelphia talk radio Wednesday when Sen. Arlen Specter, D-Pennsylvania, told Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minnesota, to "act like a lady."

Specter and Bachmann appeared on WPHT radio to discuss the what President Obama has accomplished in his first year in office. When Specter began to respond to Bachmann's claim that Scott Brown's special election victory in Massachusetts was a repudiation of the Obama administration's policies, Bachmann interjected - to the clear frustration of the longtime Senator.

"I didn't interrupt you," Specter said. "This is beginning to sound like a TV talk show."

When Bachmann interrupted again, Specter angrily responded. "Now wait a minute, I'll stop and you can talk," he said. "I'll treat you like a lady, so act like one."

"I am a lady," Bachmann retorted.

She again interrupted Specter later in the interview. And again, Specter told her to "act like a lady." Bachmann one more time confirmed that she is a lady.

"Well I think you are too, that's why I'm treating you like one," Specter said. "But just don't interrupt me...


CNN Reports

Why can they not even follow their own race, class, and gender lectures and preachings? Wink
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh, those paternalistic, sexist Democrats again... Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Arlen Spector, condescending to Michelle Bachman, wrote:
...act like a lady!


Quote:
Washington -- A heated political debate and charges of sexism erupted on Philadelphia talk radio Wednesday when Sen. Arlen Specter, D-Pennsylvania, told Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minnesota, to "act like a lady."

Specter and Bachmann appeared on WPHT radio to discuss the what President Obama has accomplished in his first year in office. When Specter began to respond to Bachmann's claim that Scott Brown's special election victory in Massachusetts was a repudiation of the Obama administration's policies, Bachmann interjected - to the clear frustration of the longtime Senator.

"I didn't interrupt you," Specter said. "This is beginning to sound like a TV talk show."

When Bachmann interrupted again, Specter angrily responded. "Now wait a minute, I'll stop and you can talk," he said. "I'll treat you like a lady, so act like one."

"I am a lady," Bachmann retorted.

She again interrupted Specter later in the interview. And again, Specter told her to "act like a lady." Bachmann one more time confirmed that she is a lady.

"Well I think you are too, that's why I'm treating you like one," Specter said. "But just don't interrupt me...


CNN Reports

Why can they not even follow their own race, class, and gender lectures and preachings? Wink


Lady is the feminine equivalent of gentleman. If I were to say, "Gopher, you need to stop with the inane strawmans and start to act like a gentleman," no one would accuse me of sexism. The same should apply here.

Why is nuance so hard for you? I know your binary, team-sport view of politics inhibits you to a certain degree, but even you should have no problem with this one.
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Street Magic



Joined: 23 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Why can they not even follow their own race, class, and gender lectures and preachings? :wink:


Point taken in exchange for the cheapening of future attacks on liberals for playing the victim:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/01/21/bachmann_i_was_patronized_and_basically_told_to_sit_down_and_shut_up.html

"Michele Bachmann says this will be the end of Arlen Specter in Pennsylvania."

And if you listen to the full clip, you can tell she'd still be just as obnoxious if she were a liberal making repeated interruptions or claiming when asked the specifics on what she voted for that she voted for "prosperity:"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/01/21/specter_tells_bachmann_to_act_like_a_lady.html

Incidentally, I've been spending the past few days arguing against retarded liberals who think having voted against Coakley in the MA special election implies you're an uneducated homophobe who hates poor people (ironically, their favored tactic for defending gay rights is to use homosexuality as an insult). It takes someone like Bachmann to remind me why I shouldn't identify as a conservative anymore than I should as a liberal.
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Pluto



Joined: 19 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All is fair in love and politics, eh?
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox, do not be so boorish, contrarian, dogmatic. Further, this is hardly about me and you. To quote the wise M. Wallace: "There is no me and you." Find another hobby here, please.

In any case, "lady" and any references to how women ought to behave smacks -- as my feminist colleagues would sneer at you for your ignorance here -- of patriarchal control and, underlying it, unmitigated sexism. You do not get to redefine via thoughtless, knee-jerk, anti-Gopher improvisation something that feminists have systematically critiqued and attacked for decades.

Just ask Laurel Thatcher Ulrich...

You claim you are a liberal. Do you honestly not know this?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gopher wrote:
Fox, do not be so boorish, contrarian, dogmatic.


Gopher, please, be a gentleman and stop insulting me.

Did I just treat you in a sexist fashion? Of course not, and neither did the Senator in question when he used the term lady.

Gopher wrote:
Further, this is hardly about me and you. To quote the wise M. Wallace: "There is no me and you." Find another hobby here, please.


I'll stop refuting your posts when you stop posting inane bullshit. How's that for a deal? I don't bear you any ill will; I've agreed with you in the past when I agreed with you, and I've said nothing when I felt your posts were unobjectionable but otherwise unremarkable. I'm not trying to hound you, I'm simply responding to ideas. The fact that my responses to your ideas usually take the form of refutation is caused by the fact that so much of what you say is nonsensical Republican dogma, not because of you as a person.

Gopher wrote:
In any case, "lady" and any references to how women ought to behave smacks -- as my feminist colleagues would sneer at you for your ignorance here -- of patriarchal control and, underlying it, unmitigated sexism.


I have to admit, I don't care what your opinion of the word is, nor your colleagues opinions of it. The terms lady and gentleman have very reasonable, well established meanings which are independent of sexism. I think in your heart of hearts you realize this; if it had been a Republican asking a Democrat female to behave like a lady after she rudely interrupted him, I strongly suspect you would not be making an issue out of this. And you know what? I wouldn't be making an issue out of it either.

Gopher wrote:
You do not get to redefine via thoughtless, knee-jerk, anti-Gopher improvisation something that feminists have systematically critiqued and attacked for decades.


I'm not anti-Gopher, I'm anti-nonsense. The fact that you happen to spew nonsense is incidental. You're the one who seems to have an issue with me as a person; I'll happily agree with anything you say, so long as it's right. But likewise, every time you say something I find objectionable, I'll rebutt it.

I don't know how I can make this clear to you. I don't have a grudge against you at all. Hell, I even kind of like you; I might disagree with most of what you say, but people with convictions are interesting. I'm sorry that you feel I'm somehow "anti-Gopher"; I'm really not.

Gopher wrote:
You claim you are a liberal. Do you honestly not know this?


Maybe if you started actually considering my words instead of relying on Republican talking points to do your thinking for you, you'd see that although I'm of liberal political inclinations, my views on any particular subject are not dictated by any "political team." Mises was able to notice this, what defect is preventing you from doing the same?
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards to Michelle's Bachmann, "I was basically told to sit down and shut up," comment, yeah, she was basically told to sit down and shut up -- albeit quite politely -- because she was rudely interrupting him repeatedly.

I want to emphasize some text from the article Gopher posted:

Quote:
"Instead of belittling his female colleagues, Arlen Specter should take his own advice and act like a gentleman," said NRSC spokeswoman Amber Wilkerson Marchand. She said that the five-term Senator would be held accountable by women in his state "if he makes it to the General Election in November."


She used the exact same grammar pattern Arlen Specter did, and we all know exactly what it means. It's a request to be polite. It's not sexist, it's not demeaning, it's a simple request for polite behavior. If Arlen Specter was being sexist, then so is Amber Wilkerson Marchand. But, any unbiased, reasonable individual can easily see neither was being sexist at all. They're just communicating using very basic, common phrases.

We as a people need to stop giving in to this kind of rubbish. We should be allowed to speak in plain English. Bachmann clearly doesn't consider the term lady all that offensive, given she responded to Senator Specter's request by saying, "I am a lady." Clearly she wasn't particularly offended by the term at the time. It's only after she realized (or more likely, after she was tipped off) that she could twist it into political leverage for her party that she became "offended" by what Senator Specter said. Gentleman and lady have always been terms of respect, not denigration. Anyone trying to construe them otherwise is being ridiculous.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh, those paternalistic, sexist Democrats again... Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Lady is the feminine equivalent of gentleman.


After reading that article I was prepared to come back and say this exact same thing. Specter used the line repeatedly, so we can see the context repeatedly. He wasn't telling her to shut up, smile, and be a good little housewife; he was telling her to shut up, smile, and respect his speaking time in the same manner that he was doing for her.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy was very rude to her. And it certainly sounded sexist. And my better half, who almost never cries sexism, cussed a few times when hearing it. But it was a Democrat who said it and etc etc.
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geldedgoat



Joined: 05 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replace Rep. Bachmann with any of her male, Republican counterparts, and replace lady with gentleman. Would this be the slightest bit of an issue? I don't think so.

I listened to the exchange, and she was interrupting, even if only slightly. Now, granted, I haven't listened to any other conversations involving Specter to see if this is his normal behavior, but I know that I certainly have a short fuse when people repeatedly interrupt me.

Rude? Maybe. Sexist? Rolling Eyes
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NovaKart



Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq

PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say it's mildly sexist. He could have meant lady as an equivalent to gentleman. Or he could say he's treating her in a chivalrous way and she should act like she deserves it, which is a bit sexist.

Regardless I think it's stupid to make a big deal about it. Most people have made a comment which could be considered racist or sexist at some point, often unintentionally. To exploit that for political gain just leads to an over-sensitive environment where people will no longer take sexism and racism seriously because it's over-used and people resent women and minorities for playing the race/gender card.
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