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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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 Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:17 pm Post subject: Ministry Plans Blackout for 'Procreation' |
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http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/01/113_59326.html
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| On Wednesday, all the lights at the Ministry for Health, Welfare and Family Affairs building in central Seoul will be switched off at 7 p.m. Announcements will be made urging staff to stop working and go home. |
I can't believe this has been missed (or have I not been paying attention?)!
There are so many things to say about this (not to mention that in Summer, nobody needs to turn their lights ON around 7 pm). |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| What in tarnation? |
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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Much simpler solution: Get people to marry people from work, extend lunch break by 30 minutes, switch off the lights (and draw the shades) from noon to 1:30. Sex at work is a great distraction and motivation. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Children are too expensive to raise in this society.
Koreans should really import foreign workers if they wish to increase their population and also maintain/improve their standard of living. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
Children are too expensive to raise in this society.
Koreans should really import foreign workers if they wish to increase their population and also maintain/improve their standard of living. |
They need to not just import foreign workers, they need to let them stay here and become Korean citizens. Immigration would not only increase the birth rate and solve their social security problem, it would also help with the RIDICULOUS inflation in Korea by providing cheap labor and also more thrifty consumers. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| redaxe wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
Children are too expensive to raise in this society.
Koreans should really import foreign workers if they wish to increase their population and also maintain/improve their standard of living. |
They need to not just import foreign workers, they need to let them stay here and become Korean citizens. Immigration would not only increase the birth rate and solve their social security problem, it would also help with the RIDICULOUS inflation in Korea by providing cheap labor and also more thrifty consumers. |
Seems to me a lot of western countries did this. The "indigenous" people then rise to the top of the heap and enjoy an improved prosperity while all the hard menial labor is done by foreign immigrants. Who...after a decade or two integrate and become culturally indistinguishable.
I think Korea is resisting this on racial grounds to some extent. old attitudes die hard. |
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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
Children are too expensive to raise in this society.
Koreans should really import foreign workers if they wish to increase their population and also maintain/improve their standard of living. |
I'm trying to think how foreign workers can increase the Korean population (I'm not counting foreign workers as part of the Korean population).
Still thinking...
Help me out here! Best I can get is "nannies" but that's the job of the grandparents.
In Germany we have a huge (and I mean: huge) portion of foreign workers and their descendants (Italy, Turkey, Spain, Asia, more recently North Africa) and still the German population is shrinking.
The foreign population is rising, especially among the recent immigrants, Muslims, lower social strata and so on.
So far I can only see you plan populate Korea (which is already crowded) but not increase the (ethnic) Korean population. What am I missing? |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bring on the Chinese! But only their women! |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| orosee wrote: |
In Germany we have a huge (and I mean: huge) portion of foreign workers and their descendants (Italy, Turkey, Spain, Asia, more recently North Africa) and still the German population is shrinking.
The foreign population is rising, especially among the recent immigrants, Muslims, lower social strata and so on.
So far I can only see you plan populate Korea (which is already crowded) but not increase the (ethnic) Korean population. What am I missing? |
It matters not if the "indigenous" german or korean population reduces. The new immigrants become Germans/ koreans after time. Just that they look a little physically different. I don't see any problem...
The only immigrants I personally would be cautious about are muslims...as they have a track record of non-integration. |
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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Seems to me a lot of western countries did this. The "indigenous" people then rise to the top of the heap and enjoy an improved prosperity while all the hard menial labor is done by foreign immigrants. Who...after a decade or two integrate and become culturally indistinguishable. |
Not really. It shouldn't be too hard to find a few examples where exactly the opposite (of the desired outcome) is happening.
And instead of rising to the top, the lower-skilled locals will suddenly find themselves without a job or in competition with below-minimum wage workers. The system works only if a lower-skilled society invited foreigners of superior skills to integrate under carefully defined rules (as for example in Thailand, which is now run by descendants of mostly Chinese and Indian immigrants)
It will only introduce social and cultural friction unless very carefully engineered. Most Western countries will only invite highly skilled foreigners in (if any) and still struggle with the legacy of past generations of foreign labour that are now inviting their peasant cousins to join them.
Wish it were as in your dream though... |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| orosee wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| Seems to me a lot of western countries did this. The "indigenous" people then rise to the top of the heap and enjoy an improved prosperity while all the hard menial labor is done by foreign immigrants. Who...after a decade or two integrate and become culturally indistinguishable. |
Not really. It shouldn't be too hard to find a few examples where exactly the opposite (of the desired outcome) is happening.
And instead of rising to the top, the lower-skilled locals will suddenly find themselves without a job or in competition with below-minimum wage workers. The system works only if a lower-skilled society invited foreigners of superior skills to integrate under carefully defined rules (as for example in Thailand, which is now run by descendants of mostly Chinese and Indian immigrants)
It will only introduce social and cultural friction unless very carefully engineered. Most Western countries will only invite highly skilled foreigners in (if any) and still struggle with the legacy of past generations of foreign labour that are now inviting their peasant cousins to join them.
Wish it were as in your dream though... |
Meh, I like the fact that we have lots of Mexican immigrants in the U.S. They provide us with lots of affordable services and they make fantastic cooks. Try to imagine the U.S. without Mexicans. It would be awful! Everything would be really expensive and no one would eat at restaurants because of high prices and bland food. We'd just eat sandwiches all the time--kind of like Scandinavia. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| orosee wrote: |
It will only introduce social and cultural friction unless very carefully engineered. ... |
perhaps, but in any case Korea now has decades of immigration models in other countries to learn from.
I don't view immigration as a tragedy but an opportunity. many countries are built on immigration (usually the most prosperous ones).
cultural friction can be healthy. It has been in the US, UK and many other countries. You end up with diversity and choice. You strengthen and develop your culture (and your gene pool) by mixing with others, keeping what works and discarding what doesn't. Thats how cultures advance rather than remain stagnant. In a globalised world there can no longer be any room for prejudices or racial hatreds.
peasants? They're more hungry for success and may work harder than those already at the top of the ladder. |
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Old Gil
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Location: Got out! olleh!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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By 2030 the most successful developed countries will be the ones who are the most adept at integrating immigrants into their social fabric, America has a huge leg up on most countries in this respect, although of course there are some substantial tensions.
Korea and Japan, a leg down. |
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orosee
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Location: Hannam-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
It matters not if the "indigenous" german or korean population reduces. The new immigrants become Germans/ koreans after time. Just that they look a little physically different. I don't see any problem...
The only immigrants I personally would be cautious about are muslims...as they have a track record of non-integration. |
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I still disagree: I have just followed 13 pages of discussion on the topic of German/Asian relationships and there is clearly no difference at all in the perception compared to 30 years ago. Considering that there is now the second generation of Asians who were born as Germans in Germany, this is very disappointing.
The problem is that your system would work in an entirely mixed-breed society but not in a society that consists of pure-breed (native and implanted) and mixed-breed members. Or, it won't work the way we've tried it so far.
Case on hand: Why is Obama always referred to as "black" even though a child could point out that this is not the case (I understand that this is a political colour rather than an objective one). Imagine you order your coffee "black" and you get a cup of milk with a spoonful of coffee! But nobody dares to call it out: The first (?) non-pure-white-bred president.
Ah, I'm ranting now... time to take a break.
As far as religion goes - I think that has been banned from discussion here so I have to keep my thoughts for myself. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| orosee wrote: |
In Germany we have a huge (and I mean: huge) portion of foreign workers and their descendants (Italy, Turkey, Spain, Asia, more recently North Africa) and still the German population is shrinking.
The foreign population is rising, especially among the recent immigrants, Muslims, lower social strata and so on.
So far I can only see you plan populate Korea (which is already crowded) but not increase the (ethnic) Korean population. What am I missing? |
It matters not if the "indigenous" german or korean population reduces. The new immigrants become Germans/ koreans after time. Just that they look a little physically different. I don't see any problem...
The only immigrants I personally would be cautious about are muslims...as they have a track record of non-integration. |
I'm going to call you out on your last sentene there. What proof is there that Muslims as a group don't integrate into societies? If any one ethnic group doesn't integrate with other societies, it would be Chinese. I'm not saying this in a negative way, but every big/medium and even small city has a Chinatown of some sort where a very high percentage of the Chinese population lives, works and plays. While 'outsiders' are usually welcomed at some restaurants (though not authentic ones), they are not so welcomed in the rental spaces and other venues. The problem with your, and others, blanket statements about Muslims is that there is no 'Muslim' community or culture. Is a Malaysian Muslim the same as a Sudanese Muslim? A Syrian the same as a Sri Lankan? It's akin to talking about the "Christian" community.
Unless you mean that Muslims are somehow more dangerous, in which case I would urge you to ask local police in major European and North American cities if they're biggest problem is the random Muslim who blows himself up or the numerous Asian, Carribean, biker, Neo-Nazi and Russian gangs roaming around. Or maybe the various militias of white men ready to 'take their country back' by blowing up office buildings.
And back on point, I hate hearing about the need for children in such a grossly overpopulated country to begin with. I'm glad it's declining here (and other places) and wish it were everywhere. |
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