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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: Cantor on Trials for Terrorists |
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Article here.
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| Those who applaud the Obama administration�s questionable decision to try the 9/11 terrorists in our civil courts should spend a few minutes talking to Louis Pepe. |
Translation: let's open this propaganda piece with an emotional appeal regarding a guard getting hurt.
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| Perhaps this type of violence is why the Obama Administration seems to be, at minimum, beginning to listen to the chorus of voices asking that the trial of Mohammed not be held in New York City. |
Translation: I'm going to go ahead and ignore the fact that the Administration's real hangup is that the New York City Government is trying to use the trials as a basis for financial extortion, and claim that the Administration is caving to a "chorus of voices" that consists primarily of Republican politicians and a few of their media mouth pieces.
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| Since the attack on 9/11, the United States has sought to balance the necessity of protecting the American people with the goal of honoring our democratic ideals. |
Translation: we've been pissing all over our nations ideals since 9/11, and we want it to continue.
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Congress, the executive branch, and the Supreme Court have spent years wrangling to find the right approach for the prosecution of suspected terrorists captured on the battlefield.
What has emerged is an updated military tribunal system that safeguards sensitive national security information and doesn�t tie the hands of our intelligence community or our military. |
Translation: we created a system beyond public scrutiny or accountability which actively tortures people in complete violation of the law.
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There are compelling legal reasons not to bring terrorists into this country for trial, and the Obama Administration may well come to regret the casual way in which it has overlooked substantial anti-prosecution legal precedent. Let�s imagine, for example, that the Mohammed trial � against the objections of Mayor Michael Bloomberg and other prominent New Yorkers � takes place in Manhattan.
The United States Court of Appeals in the Second Circuit is the highest federal court with jurisdiction over the Manhattan federal court. A clever defense lawyer will be ethically bound to take advantage of strong legal precedent from the Second Circuit under a doctrine called �Outrageous Government Conduct.� In the Second Circuit, a court finding of outrageous conduct by the government � after the arrest of a defendant � can lead to the outright dismissal of the charges. |
Translation: the conduct for handling prisoners the Republican Party devised is so monsterous and inhumane that it's possible it could be used as a basis for releasing these men under American law. We want to use this as an excuse to engage in more monsterous and inhumane conduct.
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| It would be naive to assume that aggressive lawyers, backed by liberal support groups, won�t argue that a higher principal warrants dismissal based on alleged torture and abusive conduct. |
Translation: liberals hate America and want the terrorist to win, and only the naive think otherwise.
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| According to government documents made public by the administration, 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohamed was waterboarded 183 times. Certainly an argument of Outrageous Government Conduct will be made and the Second Circuit is the only circuit court that has adopted this dramatic remedy of acquittal. |
Translation: Again, I'm going to try to use our record of monsterous and inhumane treatment as a justification for more monsterous and inhumane treatment, while simultaneously ever so casually mentioning we tortured this fellow at least 183 times.
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| Bringing our nation�s sworn enemies ashore � and giving them a prominent platform to air their grievances � is a reward they do not deserve and a risk that our people should not be forced to endure. |
Translation: a fair trial under our legal system is a reward. Secret torture sessions are the reasonable default. Welcome to bizarro ethics.
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| Elected officials from both parties, in both chambers of Congress, are stepping up legislative efforts to deny any funding for trying alleged 9/11 conspirators in federal courts. |
Translation: we're going to keep obstructing the Hell out of this Administration in any way we can.
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| President Obama, who finally told the American people that we are �at war� with Al Qaeda after the attempted Christmas bombing ... |
Translation: to further my propaganda, I'm going to go ahead and focus on the usage of particular phrases as if their usage were actually meaningful.
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| Let�s remember Mr. Pepe�s warning that �they want to become martyrs.� A military tribunal is not merely a better alternative and the surest way to guarantee justice, it is the only smart and safe option, and I call on the administration to change course. |
Translation: I'm going to go ahead and contradict myself. First, I suggested that they would actively try to use legal precedent to avoid being convicted. Now I'm going to suggest that they want to be martyrs, which would require conviction to occur. This allows me to push my case no matter what: if they're acquitted, they win, if they are convicted, they win, and no matter what, we're going to whine like little girls.
Terrible article, but I'm sure it will go over well with a certain unnamed American demographic. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: |
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Reading between the lines is an excellent and valuable skill to have.
Fox, I wish many more people had your skill at doing it. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| The man's lucky he's only being waterboarded. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm. According to what I can find, her convict has nothing to do with her actions in court (i.e. defending him), but rather to do with her passing the following message to his terrorist organization via a press release:
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| I [Omar Abdel-Rahman] am not withdrawing my support of the cease-fire, I am merely questioning it and I am urging you, who are on the ground there to discuss it and to include everyone in your discussions as we always have done. |
Personally I don't see how this message aids or abets terrorism in any way; no specific instructions were passed and no plans were made. I really don't think this should have been treated as the basis for a conviction regarding anything. However, I think it's important to point out that her defending him in court is immaterial to her actual conviction. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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In total contradiction to the bizarro reality Congressman Cantor posits, terrorists can be successfully interrogated without torturing them.
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WASHINGTON � Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the Nigerian man accused of trying to blow up a jetliner bound for Detroit on Dec. 25, started talking to investigators after two of his family members arrived in the United States and helped earn his cooperation, a senior administration official said Tuesday evening.
Mr. Abdulmutallab, 23, began speaking to F.B.I. agents last week in Detroit and has not stopped, two government officials said. The officials declined to disclose what information was obtained from him, but said it was aiding in the investigation of the attempted terrorist attack.
�With the family, the F.B.I. approached the suspect,� the senior administration official said, speaking to reporters at the White House on the condition of anonymity because of the pending legal case. �He has been cooperating for days.�
The cooperation was first disclosed during a Congressional hearing on Tuesday, as the suspect�s interrogation became the subject of an intense political debate over whether he initially stopped providing information after he was read his Miranda rights and received a lawyer. The administration was seeking to refute the notion that he was treated differently from any other terrorism suspects since the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
The White House hastily called a briefing on Tuesday evening to discuss the new details of the case. The senior administration official provided this account:
Two counterterrorism agents flew to Lagos, Nigeria, on Jan. 1. Before their departure, the agents spent days getting briefed on information in the case. In Lagos, the agents met with C.I.A. officers, who provided contacts among the suspect�s family, friends and other associates.
The two agents moved to Abuja, the capital, �to gain an understanding of the suspect,� and ultimately located two family members of Mr. Abdulmutallab, the official said. The relatives, whom the official declined to identify, agreed to cooperate because they �disagreed with his efforts to blow up American targets.�
The agents and the two family members flew back to the United States on Jan. 17. They met with the F.B.I. to discuss a way forward. After meeting with Mr. Abdulmutallab for several days, the official said, the family members persuaded him to talk to investigators.
�The intelligence gained has been disseminated throughout the intelligence community,� the official said, adding, �The best way to get him to talk was working with his family.�
Another federal official said Mr. Abdulmutallab had provided information about people he met in Yemen, where he is believed to have receiving training and explosives from Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, a branch of the terrorist network.
�He�s retracing his activities over there,� said the official, who would discuss the case only on the condition of anonymity. �You run to ground what he tells you, validate it and follow up. You build a relationship. It�s a pretty standard process.�
The official said that since Dec. 25, the F.B.I. had been in constant communication with the C.I.A., the National Counterterrorism Center and other agencies about Mr. Abdulmutallab�s disclosures. He has been questioned about his contacts with Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born Muslim cleric in Yemen whose radical sermons have been an influence in several terrorism cases, the official said.
The F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, told the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday that Mr. Abdulmutallab had provided valuable intelligence, but did not elaborate.
Mr. Abdulmutallab has not been offered any specific plea bargain in exchange for his cooperation, a law enforcement official said. The suspect was indicted last month on charges that included attempted murder on an airplane.
A defense lawyer for Mr. Abdulmutallab has been at the interrogation sessions, the official said. Miriam L. Siefer, chief counsel for the federal defender office in Detroit, which is defending Mr. Abdulmutallab, did not respond to a request for comment. |
No torture, read Miranda rights, and he's still contributing due to the interrogators using effective, non-torture based methods. Getting his family involved is an excellent approach, and while every terrorist obviously won't have family willing to assist, this is just one example of how we can garner useful information without compromising our values in the process.
The Republican case for torture is dead, and any attempt to continue to push it is literally demonstrative of a willingness to subject people to needless suffering for political benefit and pride. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I take it Rep. Cantor was opposed to the prosecutions of Zacarias Moussaoui, Richard Reid, etc. Somebody should ask him about that next time he's on the teevee. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Hmm. According to what I can find, her convict has nothing to do with her actions in court (i.e. defending him), but rather to do with her passing the following message to his terrorist organization via a press release:
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| I [Omar Abdel-Rahman] am not withdrawing my support of the cease-fire, I am merely questioning it and I am urging you, who are on the ground there to discuss it and to include everyone in your discussions as we always have done. |
Personally I don't see how this message aids or abets terrorism in any way; no specific instructions were passed and no plans were made. I really don't think this should have been treated as the basis for a conviction regarding anything. However, I think it's important to point out that her defending him in court is immaterial to her actual conviction. |
Maybe I should have written
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| ...for staunchly representing her client. |
In addition to defense in court, a lawyer's job is also to represent the client to the media and anyone else who might be interested, especially when the defendant does ont have direct access. |
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