Korean Job Discussion Forums

[rusty1983]

Here's something that tripped me up before

Why do you say

You should visit Liverpool, WHERE the Beatles came from
but
You should visit Liverpool, WHICH is in the North of England
?

Im thinking its something to do with word order as Im pretty useless with relative pronouns, but a good answer would be valuable for next week

Thanks

[edwardcatflap]

'Where' here is used as an object pronoun meaning 'in which' or 'to which' whereas 'which' is the subject here so takes the verb 'to be'

[rusty1983]

So

'Liverpool is a city from which the Beatles came'?

I think Ive got it

[roknroll]

Grammar, which is not my strong point, can be quite complex.
Grammar, where I'm from, isn't strictly adhered to.

How about attacking it from another angle:

Liverpool, which is in the North of England, is a great place to visit.

Liverpool, which is where the Beatles are from, is a great place to visit.

Or with your sentence, just add 'which is' before 'where'.

Relative clauses add more info. Defining RCs explain which person or thing you are talking about (it's needed and a kind of qualifier).

-->The Beatles who are from Liverpool are my favorite band.

(granted, the Beatles probably don't need any qualifying but it's still grammatically sound i think. A better sentence might be: 'I met the woman who lives next door'. 'who lives next door' is the defining RC, as 'I met the woman' is not too clear).

Non-defining RCs give further info which is not needed to identify the person, thing, or group you are talking about. So something like: 'I met Paul McCartney' is quite clear but I may want to add: 'I met Paul McCartney, who was staying at the hotel across the street' which adds more info but isn't needed to understand who I mean.

A non-defining RC usually has a common before and after it (unless it's at the end of the sentence as above). Whereas defining RCs do not.

Thus I believe your sentences have non-defining RCs (unlike defining RCS, non-defining RCs cannot be used without relative pronouns). So the only distinction here is when referring to people or a group of people, you use 'who' as the subject of the non-defining RC and use 'who' or 'whom' as the object. When you are referring to a thing or group of things, you use 'which' as the subject or object of a non-defining clause. 'When' and 'where' are used in non-defining RCs. (Both can be used in defining RCs but must be preceeded by a particular kind of noun: 'time' or name of a period for 'when' and 'place' or a name of a place like 'room' or 'street' for 'where'--could also use 'in which' to replace 'where'). Place names such as 'Liverpool' are proper nouns and so do not have defining RCs after them.

In sum, "You should visit Liverpool" is the main idea of the sentence. The other half of both sentences are non-defining relative clauses. They add more info but are not needed to understand the main idea-->Visit Liverpool. Since Liverpool is a thing (an 'it', It is a city) you can use 'which' or 'where' in the non-defining RCs. So use 'which is' where the Beatles came from or simply use where. Why the diff? Beats me...lol.

You could turn the sentence into a main or defining clause:

You should visit the place(city) in which(/where/that) the Beatles are from. Liverpool.

(But you can't say: 'You should visit Liverpool where the Beatles are from'--as a defining clause, simply need a common or delay if speaking).

or

"You should visit Liverpool in Northern England" (or the North of England).

Wrt edwards reply, 'where' is used as the object of the non-defining clause but I think the meaning 'in which' is only related to its use in defining RCs. 'Which' is the subject of the non-defining clause and the 'be' verb follows for obvious reasons.

[rusty1983]

Thanks for both of those. I was going to ask if there is any theory behind this but it is quite all right now.


To the directly above - Im sorry my examples were rubbish I didnt lay them out very well!!!!

I have had the other teachers going batty trying to think of a rule for it...Like "Well if you say 'which' it makes it more specific"....what?

The subject/object rule works lovely thanks.

[jugbandjames]