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air76
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
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 Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: Question for university instructors.... |
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Out of curiosity...do you find that a lot of your students just flat out don't listen to your requests or advice?
Clearly I don't mean all of my students, but a lot of my students (often most of them) seem to just tune me out completely at times.
I am not talking about situations where there could be a miscommunication or that they didn't understand what I meant. I am talking about situations where the students absolutely 100% understand what I have asked of them and then just simply don't do it.
I am referring to things like:
1. Don't do your homework on Hangeul Writer, use Microsoft Word
2. Basic paragraph structure (indenting the first sentence and NOT starting a new line with each additional sentence)
3. Don't write a script to memorize for your oral presentation, use notecards
4. for writing class buy a notebook that is larger than 10cm2 and that doesn't have a single Hello Kitty printed in it
...and so on.
Some days I feel like I am taking crazy pills...if it were the lower level students just not understanding me that would be one thing, but in most of my classes the general level of comprehension is quite high, and even my best students often disregard what I tell them.
At any rate...I am not looking for advice, but simply curious as to whether or not this is prevalent across the board at all universities. I am just amazed at how many times I will tell the class "DON'T do X on your homework assignment" and then literally 90% of the class still does it, as if I won't notice. |
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zappadelta
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I also teach English Composition at the university level, and I feel exactly the same as you. I give them simple instructions in class, and I put the same instructions on our class website, and they still don't do it, or they do something that is different from what I asked. Drives me crazy. My coworker reminded me that it's their grade, not ours. That calmed me down a little, but still frustrating. |
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zappadelta
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I forgot to mention that I teach only English language and lit majors, so like you said it's not a communication problem. |
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OiGirl
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: Hoke-y-gun
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Depending on the offense. I grade them down or won't accept their work. Either they get it or they drop out. |
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jlb
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Seriously, why do you stress about stuff like this? Just mark them down a grade or two (and write the offense, of course!) and your students will learn quickly enough. Don't let the little stuff get to you. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:29 am Post subject: |
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>1. Don't do your homework on Hangeul Writer, use Microsoft Word
At times I have this problem. I gave my students a link to download Open Office, and some do use it now, or they pirate Word.
>2. Basic paragraph structure (indenting the first sentence and NOT starting a new line with each additional sentence)
Yes, with the lower level students in particular. I find I have to discuss paragraph division quite a lot and give lots of examples. It is not so much part of Korean rhetoric.
>3. Don't write a script to memorize for your oral presentation, use notecards
I don't have this problem, although some of my students are too reliant on Powerpoint. I've occasionally forbidden it in presentations.
>4. for writing class buy a notebook that is larger than 10cm2 and that doesn't have a single Hello Kitty printed in it
Sigh. Or people who don't bring paper at all to writing class -- we need PAPER? -- and give me their assignment on the syllabus or handout, scrunched in the corner. I've learned not to fret about this one. |
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carleverson
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 3. Don't write a script to memorize for your oral presentation, use notecards |
I have this problem often despite constantly reminding them to use notes.
Often times, their "script" is copied word for word off the internet or they'll simply dump their Korean text into an English translator. |
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Tamada
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:13 am Post subject: |
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OP - I feel your pain. However for presentations/speeches I NEVER allow students to use any kinds of notecards, notes or written paper. In the early days I did....guess what they did? Read, read, read. Now, they have to know their topic well and must speak only.
I do allow visuals..........they can use pictures etc.....which they can explain...... but they are not allowed to put any words with the visuals.
Honestly as a result of these changes, I find my students prepare, present and speak much better.
As for your other points, you have my deepest sympathies. However, it's tough dealing with Korean adults (with the minds and maturity of western kindergarten kids) who have been taught the wrong (Korean) way for their entire lives.
Being taught by third rate so called Korean educators is a serious handicap to any kid's life. Certainly makes our lives much harder.....if not impossible at times.  |
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Hyeon Een
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Question for university instructors.... |
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| air76 wrote: |
2. Basic paragraph structure (indenting the first sentence and NOT starting a new line with each additional sentence) |
I found the 'cause' of some of my students starting a new line for each additional sentence.
I'd asked the students to double space their writing to make it easier for me to correct.
Even the quite fluent ones don't generally know the term 'double space' so I draw diagrams and explain that it's an option on the word processor etc.
A few students misunderstand and think I want them to press enter twice at the end of each sentence for some reason.
Like this ^^ |
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air76
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Tamada wrote: |
OP - I feel your pain. However for presentations/speeches I NEVER allow students to use any kinds of notecards, notes or written paper. In the early days I did....guess what they did? Read, read, read. Now, they have to know their topic well and must speak only.
I do allow visuals..........they can use pictures etc.....which they can explain...... but they are not allowed to put any words with the visuals.
Honestly as a result of these changes, I find my students prepare, present and speak much better.
As for your other points, you have my deepest sympathies. However, it's tough dealing with Korean adults (with the minds and maturity of western kindergarten kids) who have been taught the wrong (Korean) way for their entire lives.
Being taught by third rate so called Korean educators is a serious handicap to any kid's life. Certainly makes our lives much harder.....if not impossible at times. |
I only allow them 1 note card the size of 1/4 sheet of paper, and they have to hand it in after their presentation. I don't have a problem with them literally reading from a script, because this is not allowed, but they still WRITE a script and then just memorize it even though I tell them not to and to learn how to give a presentation from your heart with a few notes for guidance.
At any rate...I am not stressed out by this as a couple posters mentioned, it just kills me some of the behavior of the university level kids here.
Like I said...I wasn't searching for solutions to these problems. Honestly, if the solution isn't clearly explaining something to your students 5 times, both verbally and on the print-out they receive for their assignment, then I don't want to find the solution. At the elementary school level it is the teacher's responsibility, not the students', to find solutions to problems in the classroom. However, at university I am not going to hold the kids' hands any more than I already am. I was just curious as to whether my school was trapped inside of a vacuum or if this is normal behavior across the board.
I understand that they have a different education system, and that their language is very different from ours, but I want to bang my head against the wall when you still have 20% of the class writing paragraphs that don't even look like paragraphs (not even talking about the grammar and content) after they've been taught how to do it properly literally 10 f-ing times, and that's just in MY class THIS semester. It doesn't matter if Korean doesn't use paragraphs in the same way. They've had it explained to them that English is different and that this is how it works.....forget once? fine....forget twice? OK, some kids are slow....forget three times?....soju clouds one's memory....forget four times? cafeteria food poisoning...forget five times?...maybe they broke up with their CC and are under extreme stress....forget six times? ok, come now...you're just an idiot now.
Same goes for explaining the difference between fun, funny, and interesting....and the importance of bringing your homework to class having already printed it out, and not on a USB drive for me to stick into my ear. |
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Tamada
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| air76 wrote: |
it just kills me some of the behavior of the university level kids here.
Honestly, if the solution isn't clearly explaining something to your students 5 times, both verbally and on the print-out they receive for their assignment, then I don't want to find the solution. |
I feel ya.
Today.....I gave my mid-term. I write 4 simple rules on the whiteboard. RULE #1 = Don't turn over your exam and START until teacher says so. I write the rule.....I explain it.....I even demo.........
Next.....I tell all students to wait outside in the corridor.
I put a copy of the exam on the correct number of seperated desks. The blank side of the paper is showing when students arrive back in so they can't see any of the questions.
Then, one student attempts to turn it over.....I politely say.....WAIT.....and point to RULE #1, highlight it with my marker and tap the board. Then I look down.....two students near each other at the very front.....have already started writing.
I go quiet.......don't lose my temper (I don't get mad, I get even)......point to the rule.....and say calmly....this is the FIFTH TIME! You two students are getting a minus for this........and I make a red mark on their papers.
Enough's enough!  |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Tamada wrote: |
OP - I feel your pain. However for presentations/speeches I NEVER allow students to use any kinds of notecards, notes or written paper. In the early days I did....guess what they did? Read, read, read. Now, they have to know their topic well and must speak only.
I do allow visuals..........they can use pictures etc.....which they can explain...... but they are not allowed to put any words with the visuals.
Honestly as a result of these changes, I find my students prepare, present and speak much better.
As for your other points, you have my deepest sympathies. However, it's tough dealing with Korean adults (with the minds and maturity of western kindergarten kids) who have been taught the wrong (Korean) way for their entire lives.
Being taught by third rate so called Korean educators is a serious handicap to any kid's life. Certainly makes our lives much harder.....if not impossible at times. |
I am sorry but I feel pity for your students...you are aware they are Koreans right?
Saying (yes even on a forum) that your adult students have the mental maturity of kindergarten kids, that Korean educators are third rate and the Korean way is the WRONG way is all pretty one sided and condescending for someone who is hired to Teach KOREANS.
Just saying you may want to tone it down a bit or perhaps grow some sort of proportionality when you make statements....
Or..not.
OP:
Tough challenges indeed. I worked for a University for a few years in Busan. I would say there was a huge gap between my Freshman classes (English class was mandatory for them), which was a large group in an auditorium type class and my second or third year students who took optional English classes.
The first group lacked motivation and was often somewhat disengaged from the class. It took a lot of work to bring them into groove and get them engaged.
The second group was far easier. Classes tended to be smaller and the students had chosen to be there.
As for your points:
| Quote: |
| >1. Don't do your homework on Hangeul Writer, use Microsoft Word |
Very hard to enforce, especially for Freshmen classes. It can be tough to deal with and you may have to accept that some will just stick to H-writer.
| Quote: |
| 2. Basic paragraph structure (indenting the first sentence and NOT starting a new line with each additional sentence) |
This can be fixed by spending the first class of the semester on explaining the rules of presentation. Use examples, have them practice this in class. Use online learning if it is available. Something like an off-class online discussion on a University discussion forum can help a lot.
Yes, with the lower level students in particular. I find I have to discuss paragraph division quite a lot and give lots of examples. It is not so much part of Korean rhetoric.
Use powerpoint slides with animation to show how you build a proper written assignment. Have each section show in turn on the classroom screen as you explain.
| Quote: |
| 3. Don't write a script to memorize for your oral presentation, use notecards |
Notecards are indeed best. Otherwise they will read off the paper. As with your paragraph issue, spend class time explaining how to prepare notecards. Explain what should be on them. Provide examples of proper notecards.
| Quote: |
| 4. for writing class buy a notebook that is larger than 10cm2 and that doesn't have a single Hello Kitty printed in it |
That is their choice and you really have little to no say there. What business is it of yours (or any instructor) what they put as decorations on their notebook? Really out of your 4 points this is the only one that is unfounded, except possibly the size of the notebook. |
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air76
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
OP:
Tough challenges indeed. I worked for a University for a few years in Busan. I would say there was a huge gap between my Freshman classes (English class was mandatory for them), which was a large group in an auditorium type class and my second or third year students who took optional English classes.
The first group lacked motivation and was often somewhat disengaged from the class. It took a lot of work to bring them into groove and get them engaged.
The second group was far easier. Classes tended to be smaller and the students had chosen to be there.
As for your points:
| Quote: |
| >1. Don't do your homework on Hangeul Writer, use Microsoft Word |
Very hard to enforce, especially for Freshmen classes. It can be tough to deal with and you may have to accept that some will just stick to H-writer.
| Quote: |
| 2. Basic paragraph structure (indenting the first sentence and NOT starting a new line with each additional sentence) |
This can be fixed by spending the first class of the semester on explaining the rules of presentation. Use examples, have them practice this in class. Use online learning if it is available. Something like an off-class online discussion on a University discussion forum can help a lot.
Yes, with the lower level students in particular. I find I have to discuss paragraph division quite a lot and give lots of examples. It is not so much part of Korean rhetoric.
Use powerpoint slides with animation to show how you build a proper written assignment. Have each section show in turn on the classroom screen as you explain.
| Quote: |
| 3. Don't write a script to memorize for your oral presentation, use notecards |
Notecards are indeed best. Otherwise they will read off the paper. As with your paragraph issue, spend class time explaining how to prepare notecards. Explain what should be on them. Provide examples of proper notecards.
| Quote: |
| 4. for writing class buy a notebook that is larger than 10cm2 and that doesn't have a single Hello Kitty printed in it |
That is their choice and you really have little to no say there. What business is it of yours (or any instructor) what they put as decorations on their notebook? Really out of your 4 points this is the only one that is unfounded, except possibly the size of the notebook. |
I was not referring to motivation or laziness, but instead students just flat out not listening to things I tell them in class. The examples that I provided are simply that, examples. It just seems that as a general rule they don't really listen.
I am not attempting to 'force' the kids to use Word. I just meant that I have explained to them clearly why Word is better for English and why Hangeul Writer is better for Korean. It just seems as though any suggestions such as these go right over their heads.
As I said before...I wasn't looking for advice on how to teach the kids proper paragraph format or how to teach them to give good presentations. I am more than capable of teaching these basic ideas in an effective manner. My point is that I teach them very plainly and clearly how to do these things (from the start of the semester) but there still seems to be 20% of the class that just don't get it. I don't expect students to be able to write novels by the end of the semester, but any reasonably intelligent person should be able to get the basic format of a paragraph down. I am not saying that these kids are not reasonably intelligent, in fact I am stating the opposite. These ARE intelligent kids, and good students, and they still don't listen. Of course I have idiots in class too, but I am not talking about them. The idiots do things incorrectly because they are idiots, not because they randomly refuse to listen to the professor. That is what is making me crazy...the fact that the good kids aren't listening. The lazy POS students don't really bother me.
I disagree wholeheartedly about the notebook...I don't care what's on the front of the notebook, but if you are to properly learn to write you should be writing on normal sized lined paper, without a teddy bear princess printed in the corner of each page, screwing up the margin and making it more difficult to see whether or not the format of your writing is correct or not. Especially when they turn in work from time to time that is hand written, I do feel that it's reasonable to request that they turn in assignments on professional paper. I understand the cultural differences and that 21 year olds in Korea are more like 15 year olds at home, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept work on children's paper in my class.
At any rate...it isn't those 4 issues that I am talking about...just a general disregard for any advice/requests made by the professor. If my professor at university told us "don't play with the computers during listening lab" we would have had maybe 1-2 idiots do it once, but not 10% of the class, every single day, even after I take their names and deduct 1% from their final grade for each infraction. (I am only so strict because when they play on the computers it often disconnects computers from the network. |
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Tamada
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
I am sorry but I feel pity for your students...you are aware they are Koreans right? |
Well aware...thanks. I've taught in a few different countries......so I am a well qualified and very experienced educator. Furthermore, I AM well aware of cultural differences and sensitivities inside the FLC. However, as has been pointed out by the OP on this thread, trying to educate students that keep making the same mistakes time and time again.....due to not listening, not caring, having a lack of maturity and responsible behavior.....can become a little frustrating at times.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Saying (yes even on a forum) that your adult students have the mental maturity of kindergarten kids, that Korean educators are third rate and the Korean way is the WRONG way is all pretty one sided and condescending for someone who is hired to Teach KOREANS. |
I stand by what I wrote..........except for the kindergarten jibe. I'll retract that and replace it with middle school. That's more than fair and balanced. 
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Just saying you may want to tone it down a bit or perhaps grow some sort of proportionality when you make statements....
Or..not. |
Point taken......but as I mentioned earlier......I generally don't show these kind of frustrations inside the classroom and luckily I do have some very good students also.
On the positive side.....venting on here does show that we care.
Last edited by Tamada on Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Goon-Yang
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Duh
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Question for university instructors.... |
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| air76 wrote: |
1. Don't do your homework on Hangeul Writer, use Microsoft Word
4. for writing class buy a notebook that is larger than 10cm2 and that doesn't have a single Hello Kitty printed in it
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So your personal opinion is more important than theirs?
Most Koreans use hangul...why don't you stick it on your computer instead of 30 of them getting a new program?
Why is the size of their notebook stressing you out? Sounds like someone is a little to anal to me.
As for the others...yep I agree 100% For midterm I got my interview class to hand in a resume. I told them what not to do and guess what? Someone handed in theirs on pink paper ( I get this every year) and other cute crap that would get their resume tossed in the garbage.
K-students don't listen unless you work at a Sky uni. |
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