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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:53 am Post subject: The Norwegian Role Model of the Year |
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No, you aren't imagining it. There was a time when the Scandinavian countries could reasonably boast that it was in the grim, cold north of Europe that the most liberal, socially tolerant societies were to be found. But something, it seems, is stirring; a disturbing acquiescence to the rising tide of religious fundamentalism. While criticism of the (American) Christian right are still regularly found in Stockholm and Oslo's "quality" dailies (most of it overdrawn, but often entirely justified), the increasing fundamentalism of their fellow citizens is either ignored or excused. Take this most recent example, detailed here by Norwegian journalist Rita Karlsen, of the "Role Model of the Year" gong, awarded by Norway's Ministry of Children, Equality, and Social Inclusion. (And yes, having a ministry with such a silly title is itself a problem.)
According the government, Mahdi Hassan won plaudits for his tireless work on behalf on indigent local youths:
We know that good role models mean a lot when it comes to creating opportunities for children and teenagers. Mahdi Hassan is such a role model. He is visible, he has knowledge and a strong sense of commitment and makes use of these things to create a better day-to-day life for young people in Tynset. People like Mahdi Hassan make a difference and his award for �2009 Role Model of the Year� is highly deserved.
Well, huzzah for Hassan. The only problem, though, is that Hassan the Role Model has a wee problem with the gays; typically something that disqualifies one from being publicly celebrated in Scandinavia. According to Karlsen, "Hassan told the newspaper Arbeidets Rett that he wants a ban on homosexuality, based on the Koran." Does he support the death penalty for gays? That's "up to each individual country to decide." Wouldn't want to judge the wonderful diversity of Koranic interpretation, now would we?
Seems like a nice chap; the type of role model I'd expect in my local Big Brother program. Obviously, Hassan's tolerance (of capital punishment for homosexuals) has angered Norwegian gay rights groups. But Stein Petter L�kken, leader of the Socialist Left Party in Hassan's home kommune of Tynset, defended the choice: �There is freedom of speech in Norway and in the Tynset Socialist Left Party we consider it unproblematic that Mahdi is opposed in principle to homosexuality. It is in accordance with his religion.� |
http://reason.com/blog/2010/03/12/noted-homophobe-named-norways
What a bizarre situation in Europe.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html
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Jews leave Swedish city after sharp rise in anti-Semitic hate crimes
Sweden's reputation as a tolerant, liberal nation is being threatened by a steep rise in anti-Semitic hate crimes in the city of Malmo.
When she first arrived in Sweden after her rescue from a Nazi concentration camp, Judith Popinski was treated with great kindness.
She raised a family in the city of Malmo, and for the next six decades lived happily in her adopted homeland - until last year.
In 2009, a chapel serving the city's 700-strong Jewish community was set ablaze. Jewish cemeteries were repeatedly desecrated, worshippers were abused on their way home from prayer, and "Hitler" was mockingly chanted in the streets by masked men.
"I never thought I would see this hatred again in my lifetime, not in Sweden anyway," Mrs Popinski told The Sunday Telegraph.
"This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now."
Malmo's Jews, however, do not just point the finger at bigoted Muslims and their fellow racists in the country's Neo-Nazi fringe. They also accuse Ilmar Reepalu, the Left-wing mayor who has been in power for 15 years, of failing to protect them.
Mr Reepalu, who is blamed for lax policing, is at the centre of a growing controversy for saying that what the Jews perceive as naked anti-Semitism is in fact just a sad, but understandable consequence of Israeli policy in the Middle East.
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With its young people planning new lives elsewhere, the remaining Jewish households, many of whom are made up of Holocaust survivors and their descendants, fear they will soon be gone altogether. Mrs Popinski, an 86-year-old widow, said she has even encountered hostility when invited to talk about the Holocaust in schools.
"Muslim schoolchildren often ignore me now when I talk about my experiences in the camps," she said. "It is because of what their parents tell them about Jews. The hatreds of the Middle East have come to Malmo. Schools in Muslim areas of the city simply won't invite Holocaust survivors to speak any more."
Hate crimes, mainly directed against Jews, doubled last year with Malmo's police recording 79 incidents and admitting that far more probably went unreported. As of yet, no direct attacks on people have been recorded but many Jews believe it is only a matter of time in the current climate.
The city's synagogue has guards and rocket-proof glass in the windows, while the Jewish kindergarten can only be reached through thick steel security doors.
It is a far cry from the city Mrs Popinski arrived in 65 years ago, half-dead from starvation and typhus
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"Some Swedish politicians are letting them do it, including the mayor. Of course the Muslims have more votes than the Jews."
The worst incident was last year during Israel's brief war in Gaza, when a small demonstration in favour of Israel was attacked by a screaming mob of Arabs and Swedish leftists, who threw bottles and firecrackers as the police looked on.
"I haven't seen hatred like that for decades," Mrs Popinski said. "It reminded me of what I saw in my youth. Jews feel vulnerable here now."
The problem is becoming an embarrassment for the Social Democrats, the mayor's party.
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The mayor insisted to The Sunday Telegraph that he was opposed to anti-Semitism, but added: "I believe these are anti-Israel attacks, connected to the war in Gaza.
"We want Malmo to be cosmopolitan and safe for everybody and we have taken action. I have started a dialogue forum. There haven't been any attacks on Jewish people, and if Jews from the city want to move to Israel that is not a matter for Malmo."
Sweden has had a long record of offering a safe haven to Jews, the first of whom arrived from the east in the mid-nineteenth century. Today the Jewish population is about 18,000 nationally, with around 3000 in southern Sweden.
�Jews came to Sweden to get away from persecution, and now they find it is no longer a safe haven,� said Rabbi Shneur Kesselman, 31. �That is a horrible feeling.�
One who has had enough is Marcus Eilenberg, a 32-year-old Malmo-born lawyer, who is moving to Israel in April with his young family.
"Malmo has really changed in the past year," he said. "I am optimistic by nature, but I have no faith in a future here for my children. There is definitely a threat.
"It started during the Gaza war when Jewish demonstrators were attacked. It was a horrible feeling, being attacked in your own city. Just as bad was the realisation that we were not being protected by our own leaders."
Mr Eilenberg said he and his wife considered moving to Stockholm where Jews feel safer than in Malmo. "But we decided not to because in five years time I think it will be just as bad there," he said.
"This is happening all over Europe. I have cousins who are leaving their homes in Amsterdam and France for the same reason as me."
Malmo's Jews are not the only ones to suffer hate crimes.
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For many of Malmo's white Swedish population, meanwhile, the racial problems are bewildering after years of liberal immigration policies.
"I first encountered race hatred when I was an au pair in England and I was shocked," said Mrs Popinski's friend Ulla-Lena Cavling, 72, a retired teacher.
"I thought 'this couldn't happen in Sweden'. Now I know otherwise."
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Ok. So, homos and Jews under the bus for the sake of a leftist-islamist utopia. Completely sensible.
Ideas can ruin an entire civilization in two generations flat. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: The Norwegian Role Model of the Year |
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| mises wrote: |
| �There is freedom of speech in Norway and in the Tynset Socialist Left Party we consider it unproblematic that Mahdi is opposed in principle to homosexuality. It is in accordance with his religion.� |
Except he doesn't just oppose it in principle, he supports its illegalization and even seems willing to accept the death penalty with regards to it.
He was clearly selected so they could pick a Muslim, but couldn't they at least find a Muslim that didn't want gay people to be executed? Maybe a Muslim whose view is, "I, personally, live by koranic law, but I understand people feel differently, and as such support the law of the land being purely secular?" These people exist.
| mises wrote: |
| Mr Reepalu, who is blamed for lax policing, is at the centre of a growing controversy for saying that what the Jews perceive as naked anti-Semitism is in fact just a sad, but understandable consequence of Israeli policy in the Middle East. |
Jews in Sweden being persecuted by Muslims is an understandable consequence of something happening thousands of miles away in entirely different countries? No, it's the intolerable consequence of piss poor immigration policies. |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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when people want to be tolerant of everything, what do they do with those who want to be intolerant of things? Tolerate them? Or do they cast them out, and refuse to tolerate their intolerance? And by doing so, brand themselves intolerant as well?
The stance of tolerance is like communism IN ONE SENSE (please don't misunderstand me). It only works if everyone in the world does it at the same time, spontaneously, and nobody cheats. Otherwise, its a losing proposition.
As long as fundamentalist Muslims exist in the world, complete tolerance as a philosophy is doomed. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mateomiguel wrote: |
| when people want to be tolerant of everything, what do they do with those who want to be intolerant of things? Tolerate them? Or do they cast them out, and refuse to tolerate their intolerance? And by doing so, brand themselves intolerant as well? |
Which is why we should, instead of living by some sort of absolute principle on the matter, focus on realism. We can promote tolerance in general and be intolerant of intolerance. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Mises wrote: |
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| Mr Reepalu, who is blamed for lax policing, is at the centre of a growing controversy for saying that what the Jews perceive as naked anti-Semitism is in fact just a sad, but understandable consequence of Israeli policy in the Middle East. |
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While it is of course no justification, I am afraid that this is correct. It is one of the reasons given by Jews who are against Zionism. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Mr Reepalu, who is blamed for lax policing, is at the centre of a growing controversy for saying that what the Jews perceive as naked anti-Semitism is in fact just a sad, but understandable consequence of Israeli policy in the Middle East. |
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While it is of course no justification, I am afraid that this is correct. It is one of the reasons given by Jews who are against Zionism. |
This kind of sociopathic nonsense occured long before Zionism was a force in the world. Indeed, the fact that this kind of thing happens is actually a defense of Zionism. Time and time and time again, the rest of the world has proven they simply cannot be trusted to leave the Jews in peace. Jews need a home land of their own they can opt to live in to escape this endless cycle of abuse.
If Israel didn't exist, the same rubbish would be happening, and another irrational defense would be construed to justify it. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I am afraid that Israel's existence just adds fuel to the fire. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| I am afraid that Israel's existence just adds fuel to the fire. |
The fire is going to be here and blazing no matter what. Israel at least provides a place where Jews can escape it. Which, of course, is part of the reason anti-semites oppose is so vehemently. The only thing worse than Jews succeeding in your country is Jews succeeding in their own country.
If there was a genuine choice between "Israel and endless anti-Semitism" or "No Israel and no anti-Semitism," I could definitely see the point in opposing Zionism. Given history proves beyond a doubt that no such choice exists, anti-Zionism is just another form of anti-Semitism which seeks to deny Jews the ability to escape the persecutions of gentiles by forcing them to live in non-Jewish countries as a tiny minority. A country where Jews can rule over themselves is a requirement at this point in history, unfortunately. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| I am afraid that Israel's existence just adds fuel to the fire. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom
Since Israel didn't have a recognized homeland during the time that most of these attacks took place and certainly not at the time that the Holocaust took place (which is the worst example of an anti-Jewish pogrom) your theory has little support if any.
It doesn't matter what excuse anti-Semites have. During the Middle Ages it was "They killed Christ."
Then later they were accused of kidnapping and killing Christian children.
Then they were traitors
Then they were called "subhuman"
And now it's their homeland?
If Israel didn't exist, something else would be used(as history proves). It's even happening today. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Stein Petter L�kken, leader of the Socialist Left Party in Hassan's home kommune of Tynset, defended the choice |
No surprise at all. Openly gay people are too diverse in their worldviews (because they're just ordinary people) and also tend to be too wealthy and too educated to be of any use, as a demographic, for socialists. Of course, if individual gay people are prepared to renounce capitalism and demonstrate sufficient self-hatred for being born into wealth and privilege, they're welcome to join the creed, but since only a minority do that, gay rights is totally absent in socialism. Nor were the regimes that socialists worship, such as Cuba and Stalinist Russia, remotely tolerant of homosexuals. Indeed, gay sex, since it serves no reproductive purpose and therefore cannot provide future worker ants, is viewed as pleasure for its own sake - a massive no-no in socialism. Egoistic and hedonistic morality is the Ultimate Sin, because it is the source of economic inequality, which is all that matters. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Of course, if individual gay people are prepared to renounce capitalism and demonstrate sufficient self-hatred for being born into wealth and privilege, they're welcome to join the creed, but since only a minority do that, gay rights is totally absent in socialism. |
I can say with some assurance that, in Canada, it was social-democratic NDP governments which first introduced gay-rights legislation in the English-majority provinces, and the social-democratic PQ which did so in Quebec. I'd imagine the same thing is true in regards to the Labour Party in the UK, and left-leaning Democrats in the US.
Despite their latter-day professions of concern for protecting homosexuals from the supposed bigotry of Muslim immigrants, historically, right-wingers have always been fairly late to the party when it came to gay and lesbian equality. Even today...
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Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney blocked any reference to gay rights in a new study guide for immigrants applying for Canadian citizenship, The Canadian Press has learned.
Internal documents show an early draft of the guide contained sections noting that homosexuality was decriminalized in 1969; that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms forbids discrimination based on sexual orientation; and that same-sex marriage was legalized nationally in 2005.
But Mr. Kenney, who fought same-sex marriage when it was debated in Parliament, ordered those key sections removed when his office sent its comments to the department last June.
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Kenney is a right-wing Conservative, supposedly fired up about defending western ideals of tolerance, but nevertheless can't seem to bring himself to state openly that gays and lesbians should be among the beneficiaries of this.
link |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| I am afraid that Israel's existence just adds fuel to the fire. |
The fire is going to be here and blazing no matter what. Israel at least provides a place where Jews can escape it. Which, of course, is part of the reason anti-semites oppose is so vehemently. The only thing worse than Jews succeeding in your country is Jews succeeding in their own country.
If there was a genuine choice between "Israel and endless anti-Semitism" or "No Israel and no anti-Semitism," I could definitely see the point in opposing Zionism. Given history proves beyond a doubt that no such choice exists, anti-Zionism is just another form of anti-Semitism which seeks to deny Jews the ability to escape the persecutions of gentiles by forcing them to live in non-Jewish countries as a tiny minority. A country where Jews can rule over themselves is a requirement at this point in history, unfortunately. |
And the counter-argument would be: the USA and Canada.
But the debate/discussion is a moot point since Israel already exists and only will become obsolete if certain parties don't get their act together before demographics change the country. Speaking of which, what do the right-wing yahoos in Israel say about the changing demographics?? How does avoiding a 2 state solution help Israel's Jewish identity?? How do the nuts who want Israel to include the West Bank expect Israel to continue to have a Jewish majority? Anyway, this is a total digression from the OP. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| I am afraid that Israel's existence just adds fuel to the fire. |
The fire is going to be here and blazing no matter what. Israel at least provides a place where Jews can escape it. Which, of course, is part of the reason anti-semites oppose is so vehemently. The only thing worse than Jews succeeding in your country is Jews succeeding in their own country.
If there was a genuine choice between "Israel and endless anti-Semitism" or "No Israel and no anti-Semitism," I could definitely see the point in opposing Zionism. Given history proves beyond a doubt that no such choice exists, anti-Zionism is just another form of anti-Semitism which seeks to deny Jews the ability to escape the persecutions of gentiles by forcing them to live in non-Jewish countries as a tiny minority. A country where Jews can rule over themselves is a requirement at this point in history, unfortunately. |
And the counter-argument would be: the USA and Canada.
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Nope.
The USA?
The Anti-Defamation League does not share your complacency.
http://judaism.about.com/od/americanjewry/a/am-nazis.htm
Scroll down to the eleventh link "America Nazis. There were 1757 incidents in 2005 alone that involved anti-Semitism which is regarded as a level that is "cause for concern."
Canada?
http://www.bnaibrith.ca/publications/audit2007/audit2007.pdf
There were 1,042 incidents in 2007 which is an ELEVEN POINT FOUR increase over 2006
A ten year view shows an upwards trend. In other words the number of anti-Semitic incidents in Canada is increasing rather than decreasing.
Given that Canada's population is ten times smaller than America's and yet the number of incidents in America is less than twice than in Canada...that says something. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| I am afraid that Israel's existence just adds fuel to the fire. |
The fire is going to be here and blazing no matter what. Israel at least provides a place where Jews can escape it. Which, of course, is part of the reason anti-semites oppose is so vehemently. The only thing worse than Jews succeeding in your country is Jews succeeding in their own country.
If there was a genuine choice between "Israel and endless anti-Semitism" or "No Israel and no anti-Semitism," I could definitely see the point in opposing Zionism. Given history proves beyond a doubt that no such choice exists, anti-Zionism is just another form of anti-Semitism which seeks to deny Jews the ability to escape the persecutions of gentiles by forcing them to live in non-Jewish countries as a tiny minority. A country where Jews can rule over themselves is a requirement at this point in history, unfortunately. |
And the counter-argument would be: the USA and Canada.
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Nope.
The USA?
The Anti-Defamation League does not share your complacency.
http://judaism.about.com/od/americanjewry/a/am-nazis.htm
Scroll down to the eleventh link "America Nazis. There were 1757 incidents in 2005 alone that involved anti-Semitism which is regarded as a level that is "cause for concern."
Canada?
http://www.bnaibrith.ca/publications/audit2007/audit2007.pdf
There were 1,042 incidents in 2007 which is an ELEVEN POINT FOUR increase over 2006
A ten year view shows an upwards trend. In other words the number of anti-Semitic incidents in Canada is increasing rather than decreasing.
Given that Canada's population is ten times smaller than America's and yet the number of incidents in America is less than twice than in Canada...that says something. |
Just so. Anti-Semitism is present and active in both of these countries, and it's certainly not decreasing. I personally don't feel particularly at risk, but Jews who do deserve an alternative after centuries of this nonsense.
One country is not too much to ask for. That country being in the ancestral homeland of the Jews -- which, at the time of its formation, was a British protectorate and thus a totally legitimate patch of land to be given -- is not too much to ask for. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes. Israel exists and has every bit as much of a right to exist as does Canada. But they sure better learn to get along with the neighbors. Can't count on Uncle Sam to invade them all. |
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