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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: question on comma before "and" |
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Is it incorrect to use a comma before the conjunction and when one of the clauses is NOT independent? My grammar references seem to state this, but I think I've seen many examples in print.
Ex)
The swans spread their wings, and changed into beautiful women.
The bird flew around in circles, and disappeared into the forest.
Are these both incorrect usages of the comma?
Thanks. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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I would say so, but the fact we have American English and British English with separate rules means sometimes I am wrong. For American English, there shouldn't be a comma.
When grouping 3 things and using "and" the comma is optional. |
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withgusto
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: hmm |
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I usually catch myself and add an 'I' or other pronoun in the second clause to make it indie.
I think that in Am english, without a second indie clause, the comma is not necessary.
How about my commas? |
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Hamlet
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Those sentences are both wrong, wrong, wrong!
Good day  |
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frankly speaking
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry guys, but those sentences are both correct. Current grammar rules use the comma before all conjunctions now.
Comma rules change every few years or so. When I was a kid the comma wasn't used between sentences like these, but it wasn't wrong just not necessary. Same with the comma before the and in a series. Now many grammar books and language arts classes are teaching to use the comma.
When I was young, one never started a sentence with a conjunction, but now it is quite common even in formal writing. I still don't use them that way myself, but it isn't wrong to do it that way anymore. If 99% of publications can start sentences with and or but, then the rule gets tossed out. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| frankly speaking wrote: |
Sorry guys, but those sentences are both correct. Current grammar rules use the comma before all conjunctions now.
Comma rules change every few years or so. When I was a kid the comma wasn't used between sentences like these, but it wasn't wrong just not necessary. Same with the comma before the and in a series. Now many grammar books and language arts classes are teaching to use the comma.
When I was young, one never started a sentence with a conjunction, but now it is quite common even in formal writing. I still don't use them that way myself, but it isn't wrong to do it that way anymore. If 99% of publications can start sentences with and or but, then the rule gets tossed out. |
How do rules change every few years? That seems a bit unnecessary. Who is the authority on what works and doesn't work? By what authority are rules made or broken?
According to the grammar books that I use, the comma is unnecessary. These are American books btw. Also, starting a sentence with a conjunction should be grammatically wrong. The whole purpose of the conjunction becomes negated when it is used to start a sentence. I will never allow my students to start a sentence with a conjunction.
I don't know which rule books you are reading that state that conjunctions are grammatically correct ways to start sentences. I agree, authors are starting to do this more, however, I would argue it is due to their own miseducation in grammar usage, as well as the continued "dumbing down" of the written language with today's youth. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies. I was waiting for an "argument" to begin. LOL.
I found the following in Jane Straus' Blue Book of Grammar:
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Use a comma to separate two strong clauses joined by a coordinating conjunction - and, or, but, for, nor. You can omit the commas if the clauses are both short.
Examples:
I have painted the entire house, but he is still working on sanding the doors.
I paint and he writes. |
I'm not sure whether or not "strong" means "independent." Also, who determines what "short" means? At least she used "can omit" which would mean that "I paint, and he writes." would be correct as well. |
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ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| frankly speaking wrote: |
| When I was young, one never started a sentence with a conjunction, but now it is quite common even in formal writing. I still don't use them that way myself, but it isn't wrong to do it that way anymore. If 99% of publications can start sentences with and or but, then the rule gets tossed out. |
You can do that, if the dependent clause precedes an independent clause. "Because the lights were dim, she put on her glasses to read."
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| Who is the authority on what works and doesn't work? |
http://www.mla.org |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| ChilgokBlackHole wrote: |
| frankly speaking wrote: |
| When I was young, one never started a sentence with a conjunction, but now it is quite common even in formal writing. I still don't use them that way myself, but it isn't wrong to do it that way anymore. If 99% of publications can start sentences with and or but, then the rule gets tossed out. |
You can do that, if the dependent clause precedes an independent clause. "Because the lights were dim, she put on her glasses to read."
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| Who is the authority on what works and doesn't work? |
http://www.mla.org |
MLA is just one of the many style guides that exist. Therefore, I do not put stock that they are the main authority on what constitutes proper grammar and what does not.
Thanks for the reply though. I am not looking to pick a fight, but rather a source for who is the authority on this issue. |
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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| Hamlet wrote: |
Those sentences are both wrong, wrong, wrong!
Good day |
OK then, then correct them instead of just saying wrong, wrong, wrong. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| frankly speaking wrote: |
Sorry guys, but those sentences are both correct. Current grammar rules use the comma before all conjunctions now.
Comma rules change every few years or so. When I was a kid the comma wasn't used between sentences like these, but it wasn't wrong just not necessary. Same with the comma before the and in a series. Now many grammar books and language arts classes are teaching to use the comma.
When I was young, one never started a sentence with a conjunction, but now it is quite common even in formal writing. I still don't use them that way myself, but it isn't wrong to do it that way anymore. If 99% of publications can start sentences with and or but, then the rule gets tossed out. |
lol...well..I did a double check on the date of this thread...and not April 1st...but I still get the feeling someone is having a good laugh.
Still, just for fun, please provide some of the sources for this statement.
Current grammar rules use the comma before all conjunctions now.
FS...certainly you are taking the piss making a statement such as this...lol  |
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jugbandjames
Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| How do rules change every few years? That seems a bit unnecessary. Who is the authority on what works and doesn't work? By what authority are rules made or broken? |
There isn't an authority for American English. It's done more through consensus of experts, similar to the scientific community. Organizations like the MLA, APA, and AP publish their take on this consensus. So if you're writing in MLA, then the MLA is the authority on what rules you should follow.
I'm pretty sure the guy who said you use a comma before all conjunctions was just kidding. |
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dave72
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| That punctuation is called "Harvard punctuation" or a "Harvard comma." It's not common. |
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jugbandjames
Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| That has to do with whether or not you use a comma before the conjunction in a series of 3 or more items. Frankly speaking is saying that you use a comma ANY TIME you have a conjunction. |
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tzechuk
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| I am British. I am going to say the use of commas in either sentence is superfluous. |
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