Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Ya-ta Boy]

Well?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#35938619

Revisionist historians have managed to do an act of character assassination on Gen. Grant. Here's a book review on a recent book that restores, in part, his reputation--I guess it's a kind of re-revision:

"Waugh describes how the estimation of Grant, especially as a political leader, has itself had a curious and telling history. That his presidency has ranked so low for so long�his current, somewhat improved standing places him roughly on a par with Calvin Coolidge and Gerald Ford�says practically nothing about Grant�s public reputation during, and especially just after, the Civil War. Immediately after Appomattox, Grant was of course hailed in the North as a savior; and then, following Lincoln�s assassination, he became the greatest living hero of the war. The approval proved lasting. Grant won the presidency in 1868 with just under fifty-three percent of the popular vote, a larger margin than expected. Four years later, he crushed his opponent, Horace Greeley, in both the popular vote and the Electoral College.

"Grant thereby became only the second president since Andrew Jackson to win re-election (Lincoln was the other); and he was the only president in the decades between Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson to serve two full consecutive terms. Allegations of scandal followed by Democratic resurgence at the polls marred his second term, but Grant was hailed as the most admired American on earth when he left office. �In stark contrast to what the literature might suggest,� Waugh observes, �Grant retained much of his iconic status during his presidency and regained what had been lost in his postpresidential years.� There were even serious efforts to nominate him for president on the Republican ticket in 1880."

http://www.tnr.com/book/review/the-return-ulyses-s-grant

Next year will be the 150th anniversary of the start of the War. Maybe his reputation will be restored somewhat.

Here's a bit from his 'Memoirs':

My family is American, and has been for generations, in all its branches, direct and collateral.

Mathew Grant, the founder of the branch in America, of which I am a descendant, reached Dorchester, Massachusetts, in May, 1630. In 1635 he moved to what is now Windsor, Connecticut, and was the surveyor for that colony for more than forty years. He was also, for many years of the time, town clerk. He was a married man when he arrived at Dorchester, but his children were all born in this country. His eldest son, Samuel, took lands on the east side of the Connecticut River, opposite Windsor, which have been held and occupied by descendants of his to this day.

I am of the eighth generation from Mathew Grant, and seventh from Samuel...

In the fifth descending generation my great grandfather, Noah Grant, and his younger brother, Solomon, held commissions in the English army, in 1756, in the war against the French and Indians. Both were killed that year.

My grandfater, also named Noah, was then but nine years old. At the breaking out of the war of the Revolution, after the battles of Concord and Lexington, he went with a Connecticut company to join the Continental army, and was present at the battle of Bunker Hill. He served until the fall of Yorktown, or through the entire Revolutionary war. He must, however, have been on furlough part of the time--as I believe most soldiers of that period were--for he married in Connecticut during the war, had two children, and was a widower at the close. Soon after this he emigrated to Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania, and settled near the town of Greensburg in that county. He took with him the younger of his two children, Peter Grant...

Not long after his settlement in Pennsylvania, my grandfather, Captain Noah Grant, married a Miss Kelly, and in 1799 he emigrated again, this time to Ohio, and settled where the town of Deerfield now stands. He had now five children... My father, Jesse R. Grant, was the second child--oldest son, by the second marriage...

My grandmother Grant died in 1805, leaving seven children. This broke up the family. Captain Noah Grant was not thrifty in the way of "laying up stores on earth," and, after the death of his second wife, he went, with the two youngest children, to live with his son Peter, in Maysville. The rest of the family found homes in the neighborhood of Deerfield, my father in the family of Judge Tod, the father of the late Governor Tod, of Ohio...

There must have been a cordialtiy in his welcome into the Tod family, for to the day of his death he looked upon Judge Tod and his wife, with all the reverence he could have felt if they had been parents instead of benefactors. I have often heard him speak of Mrs. Tod as the most admirable woman he had ever known. He remained with the Tod family only a few years, until old enough to learn a trade. He went first, I believe, with his half-brother, Peter Grant, who, though not a tanner himself, owned a tannery in Maysville, Kentucky. Here he learned his trade, and in a few years returned to Deerfield and worked for, and lived in the family of a Mr. Brown, the father of John Brown--"whose body lies mouldering in the grave, while his soul goes marching on." I have often heard my father speak of John Brown, particularly since the events at Harper's Ferry. Brown was a boy when they lived in the same house, but he knew him afterwards, and regarded him as a man of great purity of character, of high moral and physical courage, but a fanatic and extremist in whatever he advocated. It was certainly the act of an insane man to attempt the invasion of the South, and the overthrow of slavery, with less than twenty men.

[Fox]

Grant staying on the 50 dollar bill is fine. Republicans need to give up this obession with trying to get Ronald Reagan -- one of our nation's worst presidents -- on our money.

[The Happy Warrior]

Grant's memoirs should be part of the high school history curriculum. I agree with the OP that Grant has a poorer reputation than he deserves (if that is indeed the OP's opinion).

Reagan was better than any Democrat President in the period between his own Presidency and after Truman (yes, Vietnam marred LBJ's Presidency). I'm sure some on this board will take this as an endorsement of Reagan.

[bacasper]

[pkang0202]

I don't understand the fixation liberals have with JFK. You ask liberals who the 3 greatest Presidents were and sure enough they'll say FDR, JFK, and Bill Clinton.

Me, my first pick would be George Washington, followed by Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson.

[Ya-ta Boy]

[Steelrails]

I am not too familiar with Grant's political career, but his military career was certainly illustrious and was also the subject of considerable debate.

In the past Grant was portrayed as a butcher who won through sheer force of numbers and him hurling his men against the Confederate defenses in a bloody war of attrition.

More careful analysis of Grant's generalship in the war reveals that he was anything but.

His capture of Forts Henry and Donnelson were well executed. His Vicksburg campaign is considered a classic case study. Perhaps the most significant event in the morale of the Army of the Potomac occurred when after the tactic defeat at The Wilderness, he lead his army south thereby ensuring that it was a strategic success and inspiring his men. Instead of marching defeated, they marched, if not victorious, at least ahead. His Overland Campaign was bloody, but it was well generaled and his Passing of the James was a masterful bit of strategy and logistics.

He was called stubborn but his stubbornness had some important attributes. At the Battles of Sharpsburg (Antietam) and Fredericksburg General Ambrose Burnside attempted to carry positions through repeated frontal assaults in a stubborn fashion.
Grant would also stubbornly attempt to carry a position but he would always try something different, no matter how radical a plan it was, until he got it right.

Some anecdotes:

Grant's preferred breakfast was cucumbers and vinegar.

Grant suffered from headaches throughout the war due to his distaste for blood and warfare.

He always ate his meat well-done. The sight of blood sickened him.

Often after a battle he would retire to his tent alone and break down in tears.

Grant had the reputation of a drunkard. This was due to his antebellum service in California where to overcome his loneliness (he did not *beep*) he would drink himself to sleep.

Grant was never one for fancy show or peacock like displays. He wore a private's uniform with general's stars sown on it. He was often mud-spattered and grimy. Rather than be all fuss and feathers with his soldiers he would just gruffly nod to them.

He was a poor at interacting with people but was a superb horseman.

His trademark cigar habit was due to a news story of him that was circulated that reported him smoking a cigar. He received box after box of them from admirers and felt he had an obligation to smoke them.

He earned the nickname of 'Unconditional Surrender' Grant (U.S. Grant) at the Battle of Fort Donnelson for self-explanatory reasons.

Grant forever earned Robert E. Lee's respect and consideration for the generous terms of surrender he gave to the Army of Northern Virginia at Appomattox, allowing officers to retain their sidearms, horses, and baggage, and promising that there would be no witch hunts and that the soldiers were free to return to their homes. When President Andrew Johnson threatened to 'start the hanging' (which would have torn the country further apart as it was slowly starting to heal) of ex-rebels after the war, Grant made it clear in no uncertain terms that he would oppose such a move by any means necessary. Implicit in that was the Federal troops were more loyal to Grant and believed that such a move would violate their code of honor.

The whole Surrender at Appomattox was handled in such a way as to impart much good feeling between the former enemies. Grant forbade any shows of mocking or loud triumph and instead ordered the men to show a kindness and consideration to their former foes. He also made sure to send 25,000 rations to Lee's 8,000 starving soldiers.

Every now and then he'd crack a joke. On election night in 1864 he read of the results of the election declaring state after state for Lincoln's opponent former commander of the Army of the Potomac Gen. George B. McClellan. Those that stuck around till midnight were finally told the truth- that Lincoln had won in a walk, largely due to the success of Grant and the appreciation of Union soldiers for Grant's leadership.

Quotes:

At the Battle of Shiloh after the first day (a near-disaster for the Union) William Tecumseh Sherman found Grant on a log whittling a stick and sat by him. "Well Grant, we've had the Devil's Day haven't we?" said Sherman. "Sure have." responded Grant. "Lick em' tomorrow though." At a time when a battle was considered the decisive action and most generals would ride emotional highs and lows regarding a battle's outcome, Grant had the ability to overcome that and to see not just the battle, but the campaign.

""I'm a darned sight smarter than Grant; I know a great deal more about war, military histories, strategy and grand tactics than he does; I know more about organization, supply, and administration and about everything else than he does; but I'll tell you where he beats me and where he beats the world. He don't care a damn for what the enemy does out of his sight, but it scares me like hell."- William Tecumseh Sherman

"I can't spare this man. He fights."- Abraham Lincoln in response to calls for Grant's ouster.

"I am prepared to fight it out along this line if it takes all summer."- Grant at the Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse.

"I believe that Grant has handled his affairs remarkably well" - Robert E. Lee during the Overland Campaign in response to Southern critiques of Grant's generalship.

"Wherever Lee goes, there will you go also."- Grant to Gen. Meade

"I am tired of hearing what Lee is going to do...try to think what we are going to do ourselves."- Grant to his generals. (kinda contradicts the first, but the first was strategically, the second was tactically)



Needless to say, I wholeheartedly support him remaining on the 50 dollar bill.

[Ya-ta Boy]

My favorite Grant story is at the time he came to Washington to take command of all the armies. He and his son showed up at some hotel in Washington without any fanfare and asked for a room. The city was full to overflowing with soldiers, contractors and whatnot. The hotel finally offered him a tiny room. It wasn't until he signed his name that the reception clerk knew who he was.

Yes, Reconstruction could have been a far worse experience than it was had Grant been another man. He deserves credit for what he did and the values he stood for.

[Steelrails]

Two excellent biographies of Grant-

'Grant Takes Command' by Bruce Catton. A study of Grant in command of the Army of the Potomac.

'Grant and Lee: A Study in Personality and Generalship' by J.F.C. Fuller (One of the more influential writers on Armored (Tank) Warfare doctrine and a good Civil War historian to boot)

I've also heard 'A Victor not a Butcher' by Edward H. Bonekemper is pretty good, though I haven't gotten a chance to read it yet.

And I gotta give mention to my all time favorite Civil War books 'Military Memoirs of a Confederate' by Brig. Gen. Edward Porter Alexander, perhaps the most dispassionate and scholarly and simultaneously entertaining account of the Civil War from a first-hand source and 'Lee's Lieutenant's: A Study in Command' by Douglas Southall Freeman. An excellent biography/narrative of the various Corps, Division, Brigade, and Artillery officers under Lee's command. Really goes into their personality's and styles. By the end of it you feel like you "know" all of those men. This sounds weird but they are to the point where I feel I can almost 'talk' to them. Their deaths seem a little more poignant than most military history deaths that one reads about.

I think that one of the remarkable things about the Civil War is that the participants come alive through their correspondence, records, and actions. Their personalities were much more influential on events than say WWI or WW2 (due to technology/static combat) and the records are much better than previous conflicts that I'm familiar with. It seems that only Napoleon's Marshals and perhaps the Chinese leaders of the Three Kingdoms period seem to come as alive.

Another great read is to google 'Civil War Letters' or 'Civil War Love Letters' and read some of them. Beautiful writing and real emotional weight to them. Also great are some of the first hand accounts of officers. Union General Alexander Hays stands out in particular.

[ontheway]

As the US dollar becomes more and more worthless it seems like a good idea to remove any good, honest and honorable Presidents from the bills and replace them with worthless Presidents that caused the problems:

Wilson, FDR, Nixon, Bush II (the worst 4 in US history) - the bigger the denomination, the bigger the loser. When we get our multi-million dollar denominations we could use group pictures of Federal Reserve board members and presidents.

[bucheon bum]

Speaking of Wilson, did you know the man implemented segregation in the federal gov't in his first year as President? I just found that out over the weekend. Mind boggling.

[Street Magic]

[Ya-ta Boy]

[bucheon bum]

[rollo]

Grant ended the war and his handling of the surrender probably prevented years of partisan violence. He tried to help native americans unfortunately his friends undermined the attempt. All and all a great man , but an average president. He put too much trust in associates. he was amazingly popular in the U.K. When he traveled there there were parades and huge crowds followed him. He was seen as the defender of the common man. He had noble ideas but never really carried any of them out sucesfully. His service in the Mexican American war was extrodinary! Really heroic stuff.