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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject: California Appeals Court Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge |
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Federal Appeals Court in California Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge of Allegiance
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SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal appeals court in San Francisco upheld the use of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency, rejecting arguments on Thursday that the phrases violate the separation of church and state.
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel rejected two legal challenges by Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow, who claimed the references to God disrespect his religious beliefs.
"The Pledge is constitutional," Judge Carlos Bea wrote for the majority in the 2-1 ruling. "The Pledge of Allegiance serves to unite our vast nation through the proud recitation of some of the ideals upon which our Republic was founded."
The same court ruled in Newdow's favor in 2002 after he sued his daughter's school district for having students recite the pledge at school.
That lawsuit reached the U.S. Supreme Court in 2004, but the high court ruled that Newdow lacked the legal standing to file the suit because he didn't have custody of his daughter, on whose behalf he brought the case.
So Newdow, who is a doctor and lawyer, filed an identical challenge on behalf of other parents who objected to the recitation of the pledge at school. In 2005, a federal judge in Sacramento decided in Newdow's favor, ruling that the pledge was unconstitutional.
"I want to be treated equally," Newdow said when he argued the case before the 9th Circuit in December 2007. He added that supporters of the phrase "want to have their religious views espoused by the government."
In a separate 3-0 ruling Thursday, the appeals court upheld the inscription of the national motto "In God We Trust" on coins and currency, saying that the phrase is ceremonial and patriotic, not religious.
Reached on his cell phone, Newdow said he hadn't been aware that the appeals court had ruled against him Thursday.
"Oh man, what a bummer," he said.
Newdow said he would comment further after he had read the decisions. |
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind the assertion that something with God (that's a big G, mind you) stamped on it isn't religious in nature. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: California Appeals Court Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| In a separate 3-0 ruling Thursday, the appeals court upheld the inscription of the national motto "In God We Trust" on coins and currency, saying that the phrase is ceremonial and patriotic, not religious. |
I don't see anything patriotic or ceremonial in this coin inscription. Having this rubbish on our money doesn't really particularly bother me (though it would be better if it were removed), but this kind of thing makes it hard to have a lot of faith in our justice system.
The patriotism argument especially confuses me. "In God We Trust" seems like a thoroughly unpatriotic statement to me. A patriotic equivalent would be something like, "In Freedom We Trust," or, "In the Union We Trust," or, "In Democracy We Trust." Something that praised a positive quality of our nation, not indicated a reliance on outside aid.
Last edited by Fox on Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: California Appeals Court Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind the assertion that something with God (that's a big G, mind you) stamped on it isn't religious in nature. |
Probably just this:
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| ...the phrase is ceremonial and patriotic, not religious. |
I think the basic idea is that the idea of "God" espoused by the founding fathers can be recognized as historically important without it necessarily being relevant to the predominant religious views or lack of religious views around today. That kind of reasoning is almost a victory for atheism in that it recognizes the God on money and in the pledge as more mythological and "ceremonial" than literal. Note that the back of dollar bills depict the image of a supernatural eye imposed on a decidedly not monotheist inspired pyramid. For the same reason very few would find the depiction of a seeing pyramid as biased towards Pagans, one could make the argument that the use of "God" is a similar ceremonial tradition and isn't directly tied to any one particular modern day religious denomination (if any).
EDIT: And yes, I recognize that "God" wasn't really added to money until the Civil War, nor was it added to the pledge until the '50s.
Last edited by Street Magic on Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| I think the basic idea is that the idea of "God" espoused by the founding fathers can be recognized as historically important without it necessarily being relevant to the predominant religious views or lack of religious views around today. That kind of reasoning is almost a victory for atheism in that it recognizes the God on money and in the pledge as more mythological and "ceremonial" than literal. Note that the back of dollar bills depict the image of a supernatural eye imposed on a decidedly not monotheist inspired pyramid. For the same reason very few would find the depiction of a seeing pyramid as biased towards Pagans, one could make the argument that the use of "God" is a similar ceremonial tradition and isn't directly tied to any one particular modern day religious denomination (if any). |
Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. Nothing about, "In God We Trust" is symbolic; it's a very literal statement, and it's intended to be such. It's also a fairly recent inclusion on our money, and was added for purely religious reasons, not historic ones. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. Nothing about, "In God We Trust" is symbolic; it's a very literal statement, and it's intended to be such. It's also a fairly recent inclusion on our money, and was added for purely religious reasons, not historic ones. |
Doesn't "religious" imply a specific denomination? |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: California Appeals Court Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
I'd love to hear the reasoning behind the assertion that something with God (that's a big G, mind you) stamped on it isn't religious in nature. |
Probably just this:
| Quote: |
| ...the phrase is ceremonial and patriotic, not religious. |
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That's not the full reasoning; that's a single statement in a possible chain of logic.
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. |
But I agree. Certainly for the founders, God was not symbolic; He was either alive and actively participating in the world, or He was merely letting us be. And when it was recently added, it wasn't as a symbolic gesture, but rather as a means to spiritually boost the nation's morale. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. Nothing about, "In God We Trust" is symbolic; it's a very literal statement, and it's intended to be such. It's also a fairly recent inclusion on our money, and was added for purely religious reasons, not historic ones. |
Doesn't "religious" imply a specific denomination? |
You tell me. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. Nothing about, "In God We Trust" is symbolic; it's a very literal statement, and it's intended to be such. It's also a fairly recent inclusion on our money, and was added for purely religious reasons, not historic ones. |
Doesn't "religious" imply a specific denomination? |
Not to me. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: California Appeals Court Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. |
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Embarassing, especially after writing "indentured" in a few posts a couple days ago. Spelling's never been my strong suit, though, and it looks like word choice isn't either.
Last edited by Fox on Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. Nothing about, "In God We Trust" is symbolic; it's a very literal statement, and it's intended to be such. It's also a fairly recent inclusion on our money, and was added for purely religious reasons, not historic ones. |
Doesn't "religious" imply a specific denomination? |
You tell me. |
Here's a more relevant source:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0370_0421_ZS.html
Apparently Engel v. Vitale ruled nondenominational prayer in public school unconstitutional. That could be used as a basis for disputing the notion that "God" is too vague to cater to any one particular denomination of religious belief. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: California Appeals Court Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge |
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| Fox wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. |
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Embarassing, especially after writing "indentured" in a few posts a couple days ago. Spelling's never been my strong suit, though. |
Nah, you got it right eight words later in the same post. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. Nothing about, "In God We Trust" is symbolic; it's a very literal statement, and it's intended to be such. It's also a fairly recent inclusion on our money, and was added for purely religious reasons, not historic ones. |
Doesn't "religious" imply a specific denomination? |
You tell me. |
Here's a more relevant source:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0370_0421_ZS.html
Apparently Engel v. Vitale ruled nondenominational prayer in public school unconstitutional. That could be used as a basis for disputing the notion that "God" is too vague to cater to any one particular denomination of religious belief. |
I don't think you could have linked to a worse ruling for the point you want to make.
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| Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment of any law "respecting an establishment of religion," which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, state officials may not compose an official state prayer and require that it be recited in the public schools of the State at the beginning of each school day -- even if the prayer is denominationally neutral and pupils who wish to do so may remain silent or be excused from the room while the prayer is being recited. |
I think you may have skipped over the even if bit. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Yeah, but like our eagle, the pyramid is symbological. Nothing about, "In God We Trust" is symbolic; it's a very literal statement, and it's intended to be such. It's also a fairly recent inclusion on our money, and was added for purely religious reasons, not historic ones. |
Doesn't "religious" imply a specific denomination? |
You tell me. |
Here's a more relevant source:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0370_0421_ZS.html
Apparently Engel v. Vitale ruled nondenominational prayer in public school unconstitutional. That could be used as a basis for disputing the notion that "God" is too vague to cater to any one particular denomination of religious belief. |
I don't think you could have linked to a worse ruling for the point you want to make.
| Quote: |
| Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment of any law "respecting an establishment of religion," which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, state officials may not compose an official state prayer and require that it be recited in the public schools of the State at the beginning of each school day -- even if the prayer is denominationally neutral and pupils who wish to do so may remain silent or be excused from the room while the prayer is being recited. |
I think you may have skipped over the even if bit. |
What? Did you read what I wrote? I said it could be used as a basis for disputing the notion that "God" was vague enough not to be a violation of the 1st's Separation clause. What makes you think I had a particular agenda to stick to? Why would you think I would be trying to make a point opposite to what I actually wrote? I looked up the relevant case to answer my question and responded by saying exactly what it said.
To put it more clearly, I asked a question, you assumed that meant I was taking a side against you when I wasn't, and then I answered my own question in favor of your "side."
You need to go back and read my last post more carefully, without the "Everyone's always on a particular team" mentality. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| 'In God We Trust' might as well be replaced with a lucky clover. What effect has it actually had? Is it supposed to be a good luck charm. I would suggest for the time been those who object to the IGWT should use credit cards. You're not going to see those dollar bills again when you get mugged! 'Owned By China' would be another good substitute. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: Re: California Appeals Court Upholds 'Under God' in Pledge |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| I'd love to hear the reasoning behind the assertion that something with God (that's a big G, mind you) stamped on it isn't religious in nature. |
I can believe in the big, capital-G God without adhering to any particular sect. |
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