|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
natasha12
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: What happens if I can't get letter of release from hagwon??? |
 |
|
Hi guys!
I was thinking today about what the worst case scenario could be if I got a hagwon job in the Autumn.I am really kicking myself for not applying to EPIK/GEPIK sooner because now I have to wait another 8 months before I can arrive in Korea if I want to be in a public school.
I have a part time job as a Special Needs teacher in a primary school in Ireland but Im really wanting to leave this country as soon as possible because it's doom and gloom every day with talk of the recession.
So,in order to do this,I COULD always take a chance or go with a hagwon.There is an Irish company based in Seoul 'Teachers for South Korea' that promise that they have really good hagwon positions that treat their teachers really well.Can I trust them?
Okay,so the most common problem that could occur is that the director doesn't pay the correct amount or on time.So what if he only pays enough so that I can pay the bills and do a little bit of food shopping-1 million won instead of 2.2 million won. He's breaking the contract,I want to leave but can't get a letter of release from him.Do I go to the labour board then?
I have seen on other threads that the labour board might ask for proof -what if the director pays in cash and I don't have any proof of what he's paying me?
I would hope that the labour board would make him give me the LOR,is this what happens?Then I could get another job in another hagwon.
BUT what if he fires me but still doesnt give me the LOR?In this case,would the labour board make him give me the LOR?Because then,I would have no money at all and would probably end up homeless.
I would also like to know what would happen if I ended up cancelling my Visa (if I wasn't able to get another stable job in a hagwon)and coming back to Ireland.Then,if I wanted to apply to EPIK/GEPIK to start in a public school a few months later.Firstly,would I BE APPROVED FOR ISSUE FOR A NEW VISA so soon after departing Korea??
Secondly,I know I would have to mention the hagwon job on my application form.If I told EPIK the story about how I was conned and had to come back home (basically I broke the contract but had to because I wasnt being paid correctly) would they think I was just a chancer and not even give me an interview???????
Lastly,what if I kept the whole thing about the hagwon secret and didnt say anything about it on my EPIK/GEPIK application.Would they still find out when it came to processing my Visa??
It would be great if anyone could help me with these hypothetical situations-firstly the questions about the LOR and secondly about cancelling Visa and then applying to EPIK/GEPIK.
Thank you all very much,
I love reading your posts,
Natasha |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| what if he only pays enough so that I can pay the bills and do a little bit of food shopping-1 million won instead of 2.2 million won. |
Koreans don't think this way, hagwon owners go further. For example, look at the apartment rent situation in Korea. You give 5,000,000 won as a security deposit. The more, the less rent is. So, schools usually front this part for teachers. It's ALL or NOTHING.
Same with salary. You will either get ALL your salary or NONE, with or without excuses (if they want you to continue working for free).
What you usually get is the hagwon will pay regularly for 2-4 months, then gradually the payments will be late or in worse cases held until next month (with the promise they will pay 2 months).
| Quote: |
| what if the director pays in cash and I don't have any proof of what he's paying me? |
They'll pay to someone's account. Either it will be legit, or they will try to pay everything into your account and then take the difference from your salary to avoid taxes. So, paying in cash is not in the best interest of a bad hagwon. A good hagwon will play by the rules and deduct accordingly and deposit into your bank account within 5 days after your pay date.
That brings up another point. Labor board probably won't care if the hagwon is late a week or so. It needs to be like months late before they will pursue it. The hagwon is given time to pay back in case of hard times or whatever. So, you are best to keep the money you get your initial months and save up for possible hagwon rainy days later. Don't spend half your salary and try to keep another 1/4 if you can.
| Quote: |
| what if he fires me but still doesnt give me the LOR? |
Get new documents and get a new E2 visa.
| Quote: |
| Lastly,what if I kept the whole thing about the hagwon secret |
There's really no need. If you worked 6 months, I would definitely include it. If you spent 3 months or less, it's up to you. It might seem too short. However, these schools are more concerned about your documents and current commitments to stay with them. I average about 6 months before I move on to a new school. I am in China now, since March 2010, and I am already living in my 5th apartment. Recruiters sometimes are concerned because they have to get a replacement if a teacher leaves. The schools on the other hand don't have a problem if you work out arrangements with them before you leave.
This is what I think you should look at as a realistic worse case scenario. People imagine these situations like breaking up with a girlfriend or boyfriend. There's tension, but it's not the same thing. It's more like seeing a dentist and finding out you have cavities. You need to return and deal with whatever problems come up. You can't just slap someone and then walk off miffed, unless you really plan on not returning to Korea.
If the school isn't paying you, then they are more likely to give you a LOR in exchange for you not coming to collect on it. They would rather feel they got away with something than see you again. Just pester them about paying you until it really pisses them off. Then, go in one day and say, "Hey, I can get a new job in (say a different city). I just need a LOR."
They are more likely to work with you knowing you are leaving them and going to some other city where you won't be there to nag them anymore about paying you. Also, don't tell them you are going back to Ireland. You don't want them to think you are leaving for good. That will just make them not cooperate with you even more. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natasha12
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: Thanks Koreatimes |
|
|
Hi,
Thanks for your reply Koreatimes!
So that means that after a few months if the hagwon hasnt paid the labour board will prosecute them??But I will definitely get my money right?
You said that you only stay 6 months and then move on -can I ask why do you do this?And did you have to get an LOR every time.
So what I would really like to know is- If I dont have an LOR,I can still cancel my visa and head back to Ireland,right?Thats all I really need to know.If I can do this,that would give me some peace at least.
Thank you,
Natasha. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gingercat
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| To my knowledge, there is no guarantee you'll get paid if the Hagwon goes out of business. So, if they didn't pay your for 3 months and then dissolved, no, you would not be able to recover your 3 months pay. But, I hear it is super easy to get a replacement job if that happens - schools need new teachers all year round, because some people flee home while others get offered better jobs in other countries. If you are already in Korea it avoids the new company having to pay for your flight too, so everyone wins. I am still in the US, but my plan is to go to Korea either with GEPIK/EPIK/SMOE or take a chance at a Hagwon, then once at a hagwon save all my pennies for 3 solid months (and your settlement bonus as well). After that I'd start going on more excursions as I'd have a safety net. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| what if he only pays enough so that I can pay the bills and do a little bit of food shopping-1 million won instead of 2.2 million won. |
Koreans don't think this way, hagwon owners go further. For example, look at the apartment rent situation in Korea. You give 5,000,000 won as a security deposit. The more, the less rent is. So, schools usually front this part for teachers. It's ALL or NOTHING.
. |
This is simply not accurate. I have known so many teachers here over the years who have only been paid partial salaries with promises of the rest later. It's happened to me as well. Plus there are literally hundreds of stories like that all over ESL websites. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| what if he only pays enough so that I can pay the bills and do a little bit of food shopping-1 million won instead of 2.2 million won. |
Koreans don't think this way, hagwon owners go further. For example, look at the apartment rent situation in Korea. You give 5,000,000 won as a security deposit. The more, the less rent is. So, schools usually front this part for teachers. It's ALL or NOTHING.
. |
This is simply not accurate. I have known so many teachers here over the years who have only been paid partial salaries with promises of the rest later. It's happened to me as well. Plus there are literally hundreds of stories like that all over ESL websites. |
I was never referring to promises. Employers promise all kinds of stuff. What do they actually do though?
I don't know anyone that gets paid partially. I would have to understand the circumstance to better know why this happened in each of the cases you mentioned. The closest I ever came to being partially paid was an offer for 300,000 as a loan from my first hagwon when I came to Korea. It wasn't a settlement allowance. It was a loan and would be taken from my salary on pay day. It was to help for my first month in Korea.
Logically speaking, if a (small) hagwon starts out, they probably won't get a foreigner immediately because they don't have the funding. When they have enough money, then they will get a foreigner. Then that money will get stretched, and the student turnout won't be as good as expected. That's when the money problems surface.
If you are getting paid partially like this, then you are walking on a tightrope. What guarantee is there that you will get paid partially "next time"? When is next time? If you get paid partially (say 1.5, instead of 2.0), then maybe they will only have 1.0 next time, but you are owed 2.5. Now they have to pay 3.0 the third time when they only average 1.25 and that is with a downward trend.
If they paid one time only partially, then what is the cause for their windfall? How come they are able to now pay regularly but before they couldn't? Was there a significant increase in student count?
Follow the money. I would rather work for a company that had my salary every month, and then some, than a company that has to keep "refilling" in order to make my ends meet. If you get paid partially, that simply means the company HAS NO MONEY and they need to string you along.
I see the claim, but no logical reason why companies on a regular basis would pay partial salaries to their employees. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natasha12
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:58 am Post subject: Jeez these hagwons are a nightmare! |
|
|
Thanks for your replies.
The thing is the recruitment agency I was in contact with promise that they only have great positions in hagwons.
They are really nice-called 'Teachers for South Korea' so I dont think they would have any bad hagwons on their books and they said they would let me contact teachers who have been at schools that are currently on their books. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natasha12
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:02 am Post subject: WHAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW |
|
|
So what I would really like to know is- If I dont have an LOR,I can still cancel my visa and head back to Ireland,right?
Thats all I really need to know.If I can do this,that would give me some peace at least.
Thank you,
Natasha. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: Re: WHAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW |
|
|
| natasha12 wrote: |
So what I would really like to know is- If I dont have an LOR,I can still cancel my visa and head back to Ireland,right?
Thats all I really need to know.If I can do this,that would give me some peace at least.
Thank you,
Natasha. |
I already answered your question. Get new documents if you want to return. Apply for a new visa. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| koreatimes wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| what if he only pays enough so that I can pay the bills and do a little bit of food shopping-1 million won instead of 2.2 million won. |
Koreans don't think this way, hagwon owners go further. For example, look at the apartment rent situation in Korea. You give 5,000,000 won as a security deposit. The more, the less rent is. So, schools usually front this part for teachers. It's ALL or NOTHING.
. |
This is simply not accurate. I have known so many teachers here over the years who have only been paid partial salaries with promises of the rest later. It's happened to me as well. Plus there are literally hundreds of stories like that all over ESL websites. |
I was never referring to promises. Employers promise all kinds of stuff. What do they actually do though?
I don't know anyone that gets paid partially. I would have to understand the circumstance to better know why this happened in each of the cases you mentioned. The closest I ever came to being partially paid was an offer for 300,000 as a loan from my first hagwon when I came to Korea. It wasn't a settlement allowance. It was a loan and would be taken from my salary on pay day. It was to help for my first month in Korea.
Logically speaking, if a (small) hagwon starts out, they probably won't get a foreigner immediately because they don't have the funding. When they have enough money, then they will get a foreigner. Then that money will get stretched, and the student turnout won't be as good as expected. That's when the money problems surface.
If you are getting paid partially like this, then you are walking on a tightrope. What guarantee is there that you will get paid partially "next time"? When is next time? If you get paid partially (say 1.5, instead of 2.0), then maybe they will only have 1.0 next time, but you are owed 2.5. Now they have to pay 3.0 the third time when they only average 1.25 and that is with a downward trend.
If they paid one time only partially, then what is the cause for their windfall? How come they are able to now pay regularly but before they couldn't? Was there a significant increase in student count?
Follow the money. I would rather work for a company that had my salary every month, and then some, than a company that has to keep "refilling" in order to make my ends meet. If you get paid partially, that simply means the company HAS NO MONEY and they need to string you along.
I see the claim, but no logical reason why companies on a regular basis would pay partial salaries to their employees. |
As one who personally experienced the situation you just described, let me tell you why it was happening.
The school really didn't have enough business (students) to pay me my full salary except for vacation times. During vacation periods we got floods of new students on break from university or high school. So the boss would try and catch up the unpaid salary during those times.
Why did I continue to work there?
I simply could not afford to leave, at least I had a place to live and some money coming in.
I ended up leaving being owed about 5 mil won in back wages.
There are lots of stories similar to this one, so you can argue till you turn blue (if you want), but you really don't understand what's going on.
I warned the new teacher coming in to collect his wages in advance, he did that....
The school went broke within a year.
Some of these places bank on ripping off the foreign teacher, that's why they like to hire newbies. Newbies usually don't know what to do and end up leaving without being paid in full. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| some waygug-in wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| what if he only pays enough so that I can pay the bills and do a little bit of food shopping-1 million won instead of 2.2 million won. |
Koreans don't think this way, hagwon owners go further. For example, look at the apartment rent situation in Korea. You give 5,000,000 won as a security deposit. The more, the less rent is. So, schools usually front this part for teachers. It's ALL or NOTHING.
. |
This is simply not accurate. I have known so many teachers here over the years who have only been paid partial salaries with promises of the rest later. It's happened to me as well. Plus there are literally hundreds of stories like that all over ESL websites. |
I was never referring to promises. Employers promise all kinds of stuff. What do they actually do though?
I don't know anyone that gets paid partially. I would have to understand the circumstance to better know why this happened in each of the cases you mentioned. The closest I ever came to being partially paid was an offer for 300,000 as a loan from my first hagwon when I came to Korea. It wasn't a settlement allowance. It was a loan and would be taken from my salary on pay day. It was to help for my first month in Korea.
Logically speaking, if a (small) hagwon starts out, they probably won't get a foreigner immediately because they don't have the funding. When they have enough money, then they will get a foreigner. Then that money will get stretched, and the student turnout won't be as good as expected. That's when the money problems surface.
If you are getting paid partially like this, then you are walking on a tightrope. What guarantee is there that you will get paid partially "next time"? When is next time? If you get paid partially (say 1.5, instead of 2.0), then maybe they will only have 1.0 next time, but you are owed 2.5. Now they have to pay 3.0 the third time when they only average 1.25 and that is with a downward trend.
If they paid one time only partially, then what is the cause for their windfall? How come they are able to now pay regularly but before they couldn't? Was there a significant increase in student count?
Follow the money. I would rather work for a company that had my salary every month, and then some, than a company that has to keep "refilling" in order to make my ends meet. If you get paid partially, that simply means the company HAS NO MONEY and they need to string you along.
I see the claim, but no logical reason why companies on a regular basis would pay partial salaries to their employees. |
As one who personally experienced the situation you just described, let me tell you why it was happening.
The school really didn't have enough business (students) to pay me my full salary except for vacation times. During vacation periods we got floods of new students on break from university or high school. So the boss would try and catch up the unpaid salary during those times.
Why did I continue to work there?
I simply could not afford to leave, at least I had a place to live and some money coming in.
I ended up leaving being owed about 5 mil won in back wages.
There are lots of stories similar to this one, so you can argue till you turn blue (if you want), but you really don't understand what's going on.
I warned the new teacher coming in to collect his wages in advance, he did that....
The school went broke within a year.
Some of these places bank on ripping off the foreign teacher, that's why they like to hire newbies. Newbies usually don't know what to do and end up leaving without being paid in full. |
Some waygug-in is correct on this.
It is fairly common for an employer to have financial difficulty - in Korea and the rest of the world. Expenses exceed revenues for a losing business or maybe there is not enough cash flow to pay all the bills even in a profitable business. The employer will then have to choose some plan to keep going. This can happen to governmental bodies as well as private businesses (several US state governments have been through this in the past, and many may suffer this fate in the near future).
So, the employer can choose to pay some creditors in full and delay paying others. The employer can slow down payments and delay everyone, paying in full with ever lengthening late periods. The employer can make partial payments to some or all with promises of catching up soon.
In most cases, the first payments to be delayed, skipped or paid in part will be those to invisible and slow-to-complain creditors - utilities, taxes, other big companies can be delayed and they are slow to react. These are usually not the biggest expense items, however, so this will only be a little help, with significant penalties and interest down the road.
The next payments to hit the slow down will be those with the weakest bargaining power. That would mean Korean teachers first, since they are usually stuck here, with families. Then van drivers and other expensive service providers. Then the foreign teachers.
Chances are the employer will use all of the above. Some payments will be made in full and on time, at least for a while. Others will be delayed. When the delays become intolerable to the creditors, partial payments will be tendered. The number of people receiving on time payments, in full, gradually declines. More are delayed. More partial payments are offered.
This can be a downward cycle to the end or, if some efforts are make to cut expenses, secure additional capital, borrow funds or increase revenues, the employer can actually catch up again. Sometimes the newly aquired funds again run out and the downward cycle begins again until the end. In other cases a turn-around can be successful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
natasha12
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:26 pm Post subject: Thank you |
|
|
So this means that even though I don't have an LOR,I can still 1.cancel my visa 2.go on a flight back to Ireland 3.start applying for a visa again when I am in Ireland and do the whole process over
I thought Immigration would give me problems if I requested that I wanted to go home. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Thank you |
|
|
| natasha12 wrote: |
So this means that even though I don't have an LOR,I can still 1.cancel my visa 2.go on a flight back to Ireland 3.start applying for a visa again when I am in Ireland and do the whole process over
I thought Immigration would give me problems if I requested that I wanted to go home. |
No. You can leave at any time. You are not being held prisoner here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The school really didn't have enough business (students) to pay me my full salary |
| Quote: |
| I ended up leaving being owed about 5 mil won in back wages. |
| Quote: |
| There are lots of stories similar to this one, so you can argue till you turn blue (if you want), but you really don't understand what's going on. |
If you want to experience what this guy described, ignore my posts. I don't want to turn blue now do I?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
