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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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 Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: Wartime Control Must Stay with The SuperPower. |
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Well?
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| http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/205_65216.html |
| Quote: |
| As for growing calls by conservatives here to delay the transfer of wartime operational control of South Korean troops from the U.S. military to Korean commanders in 2012, the source said the U.S. position remains unchanged, but the issue is open to discussion by both governments. |
That last paragraph made me think. See, I have been here 6 years now and from what I have experienced, Koreans are extremely reactionary. Never have I seen another country react so much on emotions as South Korea. Any time there is a disapproval from a vast minority (i.e. maybe 500,000 or less), the government is quick to appease them. Just look at the past few years with the new immigration laws, Mad Cow disease, FTA agreement, etc. All of this was done based on emotions rather than rationale.
Can you imagine if wartime control is given to this country? How they'd react? I'm sorry, but South Korea has the small-man complex. Every little thing that a Korean does ANYWHERE in the world and they feel compelled to brag about it in order to garner attention from others. Moreover, the country is like the 3 year old child that will throw a tantrum over the littlest thing. Imagine the fallout! No way! |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Wartime Control Must Stay with The SuperPower. |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
Well?
| Quote: |
| http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/205_65216.html |
| Quote: |
| As for growing calls by conservatives here to delay the transfer of wartime operational control of South Korean troops from the U.S. military to Korean commanders in 2012, the source said the U.S. position remains unchanged, but the issue is open to discussion by both governments. |
That last paragraph made me think. See, I have been here 6 years now and from what I have experienced, Koreans are extremely reactionary. Never have I seen another country react so much on emotions as South Korea. Any time there is a disapproval from a vast minority (i.e. maybe 500,000 or less), the government is quick to appease them. Just look at the past few years with the new immigration laws, Mad Cow disease, FTA agreement, etc. All of this was done based on emotions rather than rationale.
Can you imagine if wartime control is given to this country? How they'd react? I'm sorry, but South Korea has the small-man complex. Every little thing that a Korean does ANYWHERE in the world and they feel compelled to brag about it in order to garner attention from others. Moreover, the country is like the 3 year old child that will throw a tantrum over the littlest thing. Imagine the fallout! No way! |
Because the US has done a great job with its war time control right? |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Wartime Control Must Stay with The SuperPower. |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| cubanlord wrote: |
Well?
| Quote: |
| http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/05/205_65216.html |
| Quote: |
| As for growing calls by conservatives here to delay the transfer of wartime operational control of South Korean troops from the U.S. military to Korean commanders in 2012, the source said the U.S. position remains unchanged, but the issue is open to discussion by both governments. |
That last paragraph made me think. See, I have been here 6 years now and from what I have experienced, Koreans are extremely reactionary. Never have I seen another country react so much on emotions as South Korea. Any time there is a disapproval from a vast minority (i.e. maybe 500,000 or less), the government is quick to appease them. Just look at the past few years with the new immigration laws, Mad Cow disease, FTA agreement, etc. All of this was done based on emotions rather than rationale.
Can you imagine if wartime control is given to this country? How they'd react? I'm sorry, but South Korea has the small-man complex. Every little thing that a Korean does ANYWHERE in the world and they feel compelled to brag about it in order to garner attention from others. Moreover, the country is like the 3 year old child that will throw a tantrum over the littlest thing. Imagine the fallout! No way! |
Because the US has done a great job with its war time control right? |
The point is that if you take both situations, in other words, the US having wartime control vs. South Korea having wartime control, the former comes out far better than the latter. Plain and simple. Care to disagree? |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| I'll take the analogy further. Giving South Koreans wartime control is like giving a 5 year old a loaded gun. The Koreans would, in their customary fashion, go apeshit over a trivial incident and do something stupid. In the end, they would get their butts handed to them. The US is the babysitter and South Korea is the child. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| I'll take the analogy further. Giving South Koreans wartime control is like giving a 5 year old a loaded gun. The Koreans would, in their customary fashion, go apeshit over a trivial incident and do something stupid. In the end, they would get their butts handed to them. The US is the babysitter and South Korea is the child. |
The ROK has calmly worked through some intense provocations by the DPRK. The most recent is the torpedo that sank the Navy ship. There have been others. The ROK has not gone "apeshit". There is no evidence for your position. While "gusts of popular feeling" may infect Korea in a manner that seems stronger than the US, it is likely the case that each society and government is about equally crazy.
In terms of the military response to provocations I see the US as many factors more prone to wild swings of irrational and violent behaviour. Korea didn't attack Singapore when the DPRK attacked a boat. |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| No, Mises, the only reason that the ROK did not retaliate is because it would have affected the bottom line(aka financial, investors,etc). Take that out of the equation and they would most definitely have retaliated. Oh, and remember that the North are their "brothers" and that is another reason why there was no response. By the way, when I say that the ROK would do something provocative, I didn't define it from a defense standpoint. Obviously, something like a torpedo sinking a ship is excluded. Remember, these are people who go crazy from even a minor incident, especially when it involves the US or Japan. What I am saying is that I foresee Korea taking something too far in the future over a perceived slight, and they will get their butts kicked. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| No, Mises, the only reason that the ROK did not retaliate is because it would have affected the bottom line(aka financial, investors,etc). Take that out of the equation and they would most definitely have retaliated. Oh, and remember that the North are their "brothers" and that is another reason why there was no response. By the way, when I say that the ROK would do something provocative, I didn't define it from a defense standpoint. Obviously, something like a torpedo sinking a ship is excluded. Remember, these are people who go crazy from even a minor incident, especially when it involves the US or Japan. What I am saying is that I foresee Korea taking something too far in the future over a perceived slight, and they will get their butts kicked. |
Right these people are their 'brothers' which is why they didn't kill each other by the millions 50 years ago....
I think you people buy into this 'hive mind' stuff way too much. Remember Koreans squabble with each other over silly stuff too. They'll start a feud over a pig, same as us.
| Quote: |
| Remember, these are people who go crazy from even a minor incident, especially when it involves the US or Japan. |
Don't confuse a vocal minority with the silent majority. Yes, a bunch of people took to the streets. Even more people didn't care and just went to work.
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| I'll take the analogy further. Giving South Koreans wartime control is like giving a 5 year old a loaded gun. |
And in that analogy who would America be? The wise old shoemaker? Or would it be some 17 year old kid who's pissed at Daddy and thinks the rules don't apply to him? Sounds just as bad to me.
Iraq may not be the strategic blunder its often portrayed to be, and it cetainly hasn't been fought as terribly(most wars are fought terribly when they start) as some would think, but that doesn't mean it was a great idea or that there wasn't a good deal of irrationality in its run up.
| Quote: |
| The point is that if you take both situations, in other words, the US having wartime control vs. South Korea having wartime control, the former comes out far better than the latter. Plain and simple. Care to disagree? |
Depends on the kind of war. If its a counter-insurgency, which is not an 'out there' scenario- regime collapse with guerilla fighting, then the Koreans would be the better choice as they were historically better at conducting counter-insurgency operations, see Vietnam (were you aware of this BTW?). So yes, by a historical military record and success rate, the Koreans would come out better.
Now in a traditional 2nd or 3rd generation style military conflict I'd like to se the U.S. in control because they have the experienced troops and the hardware and the logistics to see it through. It all depends on the situation.
Anyways no matter what the US would still retain control over its forces no matter what the official print says. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| No, Mises, the only reason that the ROK did not retaliate is because it would have affected the bottom line(aka financial, investors,etc). Take that out of the equation and they would most definitely have retaliated. |
This benefits mises' position, not yours. The fact that the Koreans soberly considered the possible economic reprocussions of retaliation and then decided against it is a sign of forebearance.
| Wishmaster wrote: |
| Remember, these are people who go crazy from even a minor incident, especially when it involves the US or Japan. What I am saying is that I foresee Korea taking something too far in the future over a perceived slight, and they will get their butts kicked. |
I think you're confusing Korean peasants with the Korean government in terms of their volatility. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The US having wartime control is often used in anti-US rants by Koreans. Turning over control to the government is something that benefits everyone and gives anti-American Koreans one less thing to b*tch about. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Wartime Control Must Stay with The SuperPower. |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
Well?
[
Can you imagine if wartime control is given to this country? How they'd react? ! |
Do tell us. Specify what exactly would be different. Also do tell us why you think they'd be inclined to act rashly or foolishly now the sole superpower is NOT commanding their forces.
They showed restraint in the naval clash and the sinking of the Chonan...just why this would be any different?
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| Obviously, something like a torpedo sinking a ship is excluded. Remember, these are people who go crazy from even a minor incident, . |
So a torpedo sinking a ship isn't even considered a minor accident?
Where do you come up with this nonsense? |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| No, Fox, it is a sign of greed. Not a sign of maturity. But let's deal in another hypothetical. Suppose the ship had been torpedoed by a Japanese or Chinese or American submarine or maybe even a Somalian pirate sub(hehe). What would the response have been? Imagine a Japanese sub laying out that ship, oh, all hell would break loose here. You don't think emotions would rule here? The fact that it was North Korean, their brethren, lessened their intent. Their reaction was based on a combination of greed and fear. Their emotions were checked because of this, like a 5 year old who gets scolded for having a loaded handgun. But the problem is this: what will the child do with that handgun if they access it again? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Wishmaster wrote: |
| No, Fox, it is a sign of greed. Not a sign of maturity. |
Whether you consider it greed or maturity, it's a demonstration of forebearance, as opposed to going "apeshit."
| Wishmaster wrote: |
| But let's deal in another hypothetical. |
Let's not. Given the nature of what's being discussed, a hypothetical isn't a useful reasoning tool, because won't add any actual new information. How you think the Koreans might react in a given situation doesn't say anything about them. |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Wartime Control Must Stay with The SuperPower. |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
They showed restraint in the naval clash and the sinking of the Chonan...just why this would be any different?
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They showed restraint because their master told them not to do anything stupid. I'm sorry, but when a country doesn't even have control over its own military, well, in my book, said country is considered the master country's bitch!
Daddy told them to pipe down, so they did. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Wartime Control Must Stay with The SuperPower. |
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| cubanlord wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
They showed restraint in the naval clash and the sinking of the Chonan...just why this would be any different?
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They showed restraint because their master told them not to do anything stupid. I'm sorry, but when a country doesn't even have control over its own military, well, in my book, said country is considered the master country's bitch!
Daddy told them to pipe down, so they did. |
Sorta like Cuba and the USSR?
If the proper attitude is the one being displayed by you then Korea would be better off not listening to such testosterone driven juvenile drivel.
In your book having your military under someone else's control makes you a modedit. Therefore in your book said country would be best off not having their country's military under said control. Even if it means engaging in a war/insurgency.
I'm sure an insurgency fought just to prove a point about Korea not having their military under foreign control would be a great idea.
Isn't it rash decisions like that the very thing you are against? Yet you seem to be advocating them.
| Quote: |
| No, Fox, it is a sign of greed. Not a sign of maturity. But let's deal in another hypothetical. Suppose the ship had been torpedoed by a Japanese or Chinese or American submarine or maybe even a Somalian pirate sub(hehe). What would the response have been? Imagine a Japanese sub laying out that ship, oh, all hell would break loose here. You don't think emotions would rule here? The fact that it was North Korean, their brethren, lessened their intent. Their reaction was based on a combination of greed and fear. Their emotions were checked because of this, like a 5 year old who gets scolded for having a loaded handgun. But the problem is this: what will the child do with that handgun if they access it again? |
Believe it or not they wouldn't have declared war or done anything stupid. People would protest and what not but the US/Japan/and probably China would do something smart like apologize and offer reparations.
Again if Korea is a 5 year old with a gun, the US is a 17 year old wannabe gangbanger. I don't feel safe with either.
By the way, I notice its the 'other side' that seems to be thinking with their emotions in this, and reacting based on fear and hysteria.
I mean according to you guys the NKs and SKs are some sort of joint borg collective. Yet they fought a war and there is a DMZ between them. Should I believe your rantings or the facts on the ground?
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| Their reaction was based on a combination of greed and fear |
That phrase would totally not correlate to the US situation in Iraq/the Mid East.
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| The fact that it was North Korean, their brethren, lessened their intent. Their reaction was based on a combination of greed and fear. Their emotions were checked because of this, like a 5 year old who gets scolded for having a loaded handgun. |
So wait the SKs had their intent lessened because it was the NKs, but ended up having to be scolded by the US to not act?
You do realize you've just blatantly made nonsense of your point right?
The SKs can't both have wanted war because of greed and irrationality and not wanted war because of 'Brotherly Love'. |
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