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ABC KID
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 12:20 am Post subject: Grammar Questions - Help Please! |
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I was listening to a presentation at my school recently from some confident/over-confident Korean who hasn't even graduated yet...
He suddenly and boldly announced that he had heard various English teachers using the word 'can' incorrectly in our school. Some glum-faced teachers looked at me as if for clarification. I gave them my opinion but I'm not 100% certain I got it right... Clarification please!
1) He said people have been teaching the students to say, "Can I go to the toilet?" and tried to suggest that was wrong and that they must use, "May I go to the toilet" Well, I didn't see any problem and I told the teachers it is fine to use 'Can' or 'May' and that children back home always use 'Can'
2) He said teachers have been asking the students, "What can you see in this picture?" and they should only ask, "What do you see in this picture?" I wasn't so sure about this. I think he was right but I don't feel confident...
Any rules, explanations or clarification will be appreciated... |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 12:37 am Post subject: |
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1) He said people have been teaching the students to say, "Can I go to the toilet?" and tried to suggest that was wrong and that they must use, "May I go to the toilet" Well, I didn't see any problem and I told the teachers it is fine to use 'Can' or 'May' and that children back home always use 'Can'
2) He said teachers have been asking the students, "What can you see in this picture?" and they should only ask, "What do you see in this picture?" I wasn't so sure about this. I think he was right but I don't feel confident...
Any rules, explanations or clarification will be appreciated... |
1) The first issue is the difference between 'can' for ability and 'may' for permission. Strictly speaking when we say 'can I go to the toilet?' it could mean, 'am I physically able to go the the toilet' insead of 'am I allowed to go to the toilet', so purists urge people to use 'may' for asking permission to eliminate any possible misunderstandings. However in spoken, informal English it is perefectly acceptable to use 'can' for permission. I have found that speakers of American English tend to object to this use more than British English speakers and in fact in most British English based text books you will find 'can I...' etc... for permission.
2) I don't know what he's on about here. They're both ok. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Another Korean upset with English for not working the way he thinks it does... |
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Steve_Rogers2008
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Trump him..... ask him "Why do you DRIVE on a parkway, and PARK on a driveway?"  |
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ABC KID
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Questions - Help Please! |
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| ABC KID wrote: |
2) He said teachers have been asking the students, "What can you see in this picture?" and they should only ask, "What do you see in this picture?" I wasn't so sure about this. I think he was right but I don't feel confident...
Any rules, explanations or clarification will be appreciated... |
So no-one thinks he was right so far...
He tried to justify the above by saying 'can' is inappropriate for this situation because the situation above is not directly related to possibility. Will anyone stick up for him now, or condemn him further perhaps? |
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Darkeru
Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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1) Can is completely fine. Using may in this situation is not archaic yet, but on it's on the decline, particularly in the spoken form.
2) I'm not 100% on the details for this, but both are fine. In this case it's related to ability, I believe. It's more clear for more specific questions like "Can you see the flower, in this picture?" or "Can you see this picture?" |
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meangradin
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| descriptive v. prescriptive grammar. |
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Easter Clark
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Location: Hiding from Yie Eun-woong
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Questions - Help Please! |
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| ABC KID wrote: |
| "Can I go to the toilet?" |
I don't know...can you? |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:05 am Post subject: |
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Tell him when dealing with English you have to deal with alot of idiosyncrasies. If he expects the world to be speaking perfect English then he is going to be sorely disappointed and disillusioned.
Languages are tools for communicating. He just sounds like a tool.  |
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Hawkeye Pierce
Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Location: Uijeongbu
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Grammar Questions - Help Please! |
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When I was in school, we had tests on this stuff. The prescriptive rule is: �can� is for ability, and �may� is for permission. There is a logic to the common tongue, even if some wish to ignore it. It is important to use the two properly in formal writing or legal contracts where clarity of expression is needed. This is especially true in international business where ambiguity can lead to misunderstandings or lawsuits. It is truly foolish to be at the mercy of a court translator in a possible legal matter.
| Easter Clark wrote: |
| ABC KID wrote: |
| "Can I go to the toilet?" |
I don't know...can you? |
Right, but the standard response is, �You can, but you may not.� The movie Avalon had this scene which we all remember from our school days. I was teaching at an International school where I had a student try, �can I go to the toilet�, on me. So I replied, �Oh, you can...[the student stands up, and I continue] but you may not.� The other students thought it was quite funny, but this is how our teachers handled the situation. It was only with older students who should know better that the more sarcastic �I don't know, can you?� is used. Really, students should learn the difference between the two modals. Even descriptively, �may� is far more polite.
| ABC KID wrote: |
| ABC KID wrote: |
2) He said teachers have been asking the students, "What can you see in this picture?" and they should only ask, "What do you see in this picture?" I wasn't so sure about this. I think he was right but I don't feel confident...
Any rules, explanations or clarification will be appreciated... |
So no-one thinks he was right so far...
He tried to justify the above by saying 'can' is inappropriate for this situation because the situation above is not directly related to possibility. Will anyone stick up for him now, or condemn him further perhaps? |
He is wrong. Prescriptively, �can� is used for ability, not possibility. �May� is used for possible events: �It may rain today�, or if the statement is subjunctive, �could� is the proper modal verb, never �can�. However, in the example given, �do� is marginally better because it creates a more direct question, while �can� facilitates an evasive answer: �I can see many things.� This would necessitate the follow up question, �What do you see?� So, if directness is desired, �do� is the better choice, but it isn't required prescriptively. |
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Easter Clark
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Location: Hiding from Yie Eun-woong
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Questions - Help Please! |
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| Easter Clark wrote: |
| ABC KID wrote: |
| "Can I go to the toilet?" |
I don't know...can you? |
| Hawkeye Pierce wrote: |
| Right, but the standard response is, �You can, but you may not.� |
WTF do you mean by "standard" response? That's what my parents and teachers used to say all the time, so that sounds pretty, um, standard to me.  Oh I'm sorry...I forgot I was speaking to a pedant. In that case, whatever quote you happen to remember from a movie is "standard" English. |
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Wiltern
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Questions - Help Please! |
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| Easter Clark wrote: |
| ABC KID wrote: |
| "Can I go to the toilet?" |
I don't know...can you? |
This.
brings back memories from my elementary school days, and this was my teacher's response. |
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