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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: China convicts American citizen |
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An American convicted in China
Perhaps he was a corporate spy. But we'll never know, because the Chinese criminal justice system is utterly illegitimate.
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Xue Feng, an American geologist, was convicted on July 5th and sentenced to an eight-year prison term on charges of illegally obtaining state secrets related to the oil industry.
Criminal defendants in China enjoy little in the way of guaranteed access to legal counsel, rights to call their own witnesses, or the opportunity to challenge evidence and testimony against them. Seldom do Chinese criminal-court proceedings end with anything other than a guilty verdict. For the nine years ending in 2006, the national rate of conviction in first-instance criminal cases stood at over 99%.
The verdict came down more than 31 months after Mr Xue�s initial detention in November 2007, after numerous false starts and postponements, in apparent violation of China�s own laws governing the time allowed for prosecutors to conclude a case.
Mr Xue�s family alleges that he was repeatedly beaten and tortured while in official custody�they say that police stubbed out cigarettes on his bare arms. Sadly the scenes they describe are all too common in cases like his.
Born in China, Mr Xue was educated and later took citizenship in America. He ran afoul of Chinese law after arranging the purchase of a database on China�s commercial oil industry on behalf of his American employer, an energy-consulting firm.
What counts as a state secret in China is notoriously murky and arbitrarily enforced. |
I've been following China for a long time, and as an American, no single incident has upset me more than this. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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It's stuff like this that makes me really question why some people get all giddy at the prospect of America's fall from global prominence. America may be (is) messed up in many ways, but what realistic alternatives are they looking towards? Do they really want a country like China calling the shots?
Anyway, a terrible situation for this guy. I didn't know up until reading this article that China's CJ system was quite that kangaroo-ish. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| this is a lesson to all chinese that if they immigrate , they better never do anything involving the "mother country" for another country .He is looked on as a traitor. the message is loud and clear. China does not allow any of its children to deviate. this is the system that some want to replace the U.s. with. Just amazing. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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This isn't anything new. Since 1994 I have been annoyed by the Chinese Justice system, when they sentenced an Australian Chinese Business man to 14 years in Prison without notifying the Australian Embassy that he had been arrested.
Thier argument was that he was Chinese and they don't need to tell the Australian Government as the Chinese Government is the Government of all Chinese everywhere.
Though in 2008, they then pretty much did it again. Chinese arrogance and attitude is going to cause some real problems in the future, if they don't accept that they cant act like gangsters for ever. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: China convicts American citizen |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
Perhaps he was a corporate spy. But we'll never know, because the Chinese criminal justice system is utterly illegitimate.
| Quote: |
| For the nine years ending in 2006, the national rate of conviction in first-instance criminal cases stood at over 99%. |
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In America it is 97%. Is your point that an American defendant has three times the chance of being acquitted? If it is, it is not much of one. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: China convicts American citizen |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
Perhaps he was a corporate spy. But we'll never know, because the Chinese criminal justice system is utterly illegitimate.
| Quote: |
| For the nine years ending in 2006, the national rate of conviction in first-instance criminal cases stood at over 99%. |
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In America it is 97%. Is your point that an American defendant has three times the chance of being acquitted? If it is, it is not much of one. |
In addition to core Due Process protection, the American accused enjoy rights not enjoyed by the Chinese accused, such as:
6th Amendment
Right to confront witnesses
Rights to counsel & to self-representation
Trial by impartial jury (criminal)
Rights to public, speedy trial
5th Amendment protections against
Self-incrimination (act as witness against oneself)
Also, evidence gathering requirements are much more stringent within the United States.
But, basically, I don't believe your figures. Here's some data.
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There were 11,877,000 index crimes reported to the police in
2002, but just 1,711, 000 arrests (not charges) for serious crimes
(index offenses).
In 75 counties with about a third of the United States population
and half of all reported crimes. there were an estimated
54,000 felony defendants. Of those,
52% were convicted of a felony, 49% by plea and 3% by trial.
12% pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor instead,
26% were dismissed,
1% were acquitted,
and 9% were diverted or adjudication was deferred (in addition
to cases pending at the end of the year, which are not included in
these figures)
57% of the actual trials were bench trials and 43% jury trials.
78% ended with guilty verdicts and 22% with acquittals.
Bench trials had 81% conviction rates, jury trials only 74%.
Murder was a special crime. 34% of murder defendants went to
trial, compared to less than 10% of other defendants. 33% of their
cases ended in conviction at trial, and 2% ended in acquittal. |
Notice that an overwhelming majority of felony cases don't even make it to trial.
Here's more data on American defendants, particularly urban defendants.
| Quote: |
Sixty-eight percent of cases adjudicated within one year
resulted in a conviction. Fifty-nine percent of defendants
were convicted of a felony, and 9% of a misdemeanor. The
felony conviction rate was highest for those originally
charged with motor vehicle theft (74%), followed by drivingrelated
offenses (73%), murder (70%), burglary (69%), and
drug trafficking (67%). Defendants charged with assault
(45%) had the lowest felony conviction rate.
Nearly all (97%) convictions obtained during the 1-year
study period were the result of a guilty plea. Eighty-seven
percent of guilty pleas were to a felony.
Seventy-nine percent of trials resulted in a guilty verdict or
judgment, including 82% of bench trials and 76% of jury
trials. |
So, bacasper, yes, there's a meaningful difference between the US and Chinese justice systems. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: China convicts American citizen |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
Here's more data on American defendants, particularly urban defendants.
| Quote: |
Seventy-nine percent of trials resulted in a guilty verdict or
judgment, including 82% of bench trials and 76% of jury
trials. |
So, bacasper, yes, there's a meaningful difference between the US and Chinese justice systems. |
Thanks for that.
If you combine this 79% conviction rate after trial with cases pled out, I believe that is where I get my 97% of all cases from, but I don't have the data at my fingertips. Can you look that up for us, please? |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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this is and never was about guilt. I will write this again. this was a message. If you are Chinese , you are never ever to aide the outsider barbarian in any business dealings with the Mother land. When you try to compare the U.S. system and the Chinese system you are comparing apples to spaceships. A justice system doesnt really exist in China. The chinese have arrested and held foreign business people simply to force their companies to concede certain things. One man was held after he complained when a whole ship of cargo was stolen by the Chinese government . he was only released after he wrote a leter admitting he had engaged in dishonest practices.
I really dont understand what comparing the U.s. system to the Chinese has to do with this topic. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| this is and never was about guilt. I will write this again. this was a message. If you are Chinese , you are never ever to aide the outsider barbarian in any business dealings with the Mother land. |
Yes, and thank you for bringing it back to the meat of the matter. I think you're right. The judicial branch in China is just another system of control. The audience is not domestic Chinese: but overseas Chinese.
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| This isn't anything new. Since 1994 I have been annoyed by the Chinese Justice system, when they sentenced an Australian Chinese Business man to 14 years in Prison without notifying the Australian Embassy that he had been arrested. |
1994? I was still in Middle School. But the incident you describe sounds pretty infuriating.
If I were Obama, I'd do something. Not sure what, but something. |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| If I were Obama, I'd do something. Not sure what, but something. |
Chrissakes, don't get BAcasper started. He's hell when he's on a roll and he's usually right.
As for the rest...his mommie was a commie. Hell with him. The US has the responsibility to protect her citizens. We should probably make peace with the Amazon people who don't like cream in their coffee but rather milk, because they feel that pressure from the planets outside their realm of influence ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Get over the Chinese thing. They're here to stay. Bank on that. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| ReeseDog wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| If I were Obama, I'd do something. Not sure what, but something. |
As for the rest...his mommie was a commie. Hell with him. The US has the responsibility to protect her citizens. |
Xue Feng was a U.S. citizen. Ambassador Huntsman attended his one-day trial. Obama lobbied behind closed doors for Xue Feng last time he visited China. So, yeah, the US recognizes its responsibility to protect all her citizens.
| ReeseDog wrote: |
| Get over the Chinese thing. They're here to stay. |
Excuse me? |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| ReeseDog wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| If I were Obama, I'd do something. Not sure what, but something. |
As for the rest...his mommie was a commie. Hell with him. The US has the responsibility to protect her citizens. |
Xue Feng was a U.S. citizen. Ambassador Huntsman attended his one-day trial. Obama lobbied behind closed doors for Xue Feng last time he visited China. So, yeah, the US recognizes its responsibility to protect all her citizens.
| ReeseDog wrote: |
| Get over the Chinese thing. They're here to stay. |
Excuse me? |
Excuse you? Obama cares about nothing. He wasn't having anything to do with it...he just wanted to look good. Hell, Clinton had better intentions when "rescuing" the kids from North Korea. At least he pretended to care.
Edited to delete expletives. Apologies.
Last edited by ReeseDog on Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:48 am Post subject: |
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The Chinese system was started by Mao. It's a bunch of crap. Everything that any Chinese person has is due to trade, gifts, benovelence, and interaction from the West. Fortunately the western system of government has given the western countries particularly the USA a 4 level weapons prowess, China barely has level one weapons. When the Korean war started the USA and China were not all that technologically different.
Anyhow to get to the point, China and the Chinese government exist because of the benovelent nature of western governments. One way or another the Chinese government along with the North Korean government are not long to stay, regardless of how economically strong China becomes. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| ReeseDog wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| ReeseDog wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| If I were Obama, I'd do something. Not sure what, but something. |
As for the rest...his mommie was a commie. Hell with him. The US has the responsibility to protect her citizens. |
Xue Feng was a U.S. citizen. Ambassador Huntsman attended his one-day trial. Obama lobbied behind closed doors for Xue Feng last time he visited China. So, yeah, the US recognizes its responsibility to protect all her citizens.
| ReeseDog wrote: |
| Get over the Chinese thing. They're here to stay. |
Excuse me? |
Excuse you? Fcuk Obama. He cares about sh!t. He wasn't having anything to do with it...he just wanted to look good. Hell, Clinton had better intentions when "rescuing" the kids from North Korea. At least he pretended to care. |
Obama has his faults but I think you're being overly cynical here. And as H. Warrior noted, the dude is an American citizen.
And FYI, you can swear on this board now. |
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