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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: An argumentative position |
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I have been thinking about it a bit since I read commentators points on newspapers articles who have said that they will accept Israel being nuked, destroyed or wiped out.
I have to say that I will accept the issue of one jewish nations survival.
I will support them, not in every thing but in the right to survive then yes.
If there are nations created to be representative of other religions and non religious beliefs than I must take a stand.
I support the continued existence of Israel.
Yes, BB, you can attack me on this issue, but I have decided I wont support the irradication of a jewish nation.
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:37 am Post subject: |
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I support the state of Palestine and the people of Palestine to have a right to live and have freedom, etc. The existance of Israel doesn't allow for that.
I am sure many individual people of Israel are good people, but due to the gov't and army's actions, I feel no sympathy for what happens to them. But I would not wish destruction on them.
If you are wondering, I am not Islam or in any way related to the Middle East. I just think what happened to Palestine is completely ridiculous. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| BoholDiver wrote: |
| I support the state of Palestine ... |
The State of Palestine has never existed. Supporting a non-existent state over one that exists seems highly dubious.
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| ... and the people of Palestine to have a right to live and have freedom, etc. The existance of Israel doesn't allow for that. |
That's not true. In fact, the wellbeing of the people of Palestine would be best achieved by giving the entire region to Israel and incorporating its Palestinian denizens as Israeli citizens. It would grant them the highest standard of living they could possibly expect living in the region, it would allow them to live their lives in a relatively well-run nation, and Israel grants its non-Jewish citizens personal, economic, and political rights.
Support for a Palestinian nation is support for Palestinian suffering.
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| I am sure many individual people of Israel are good people, but due to the gov't and army's actions, I feel no sympathy for what happens to them. |
Why do the actions of Hamas not leave you with a similar feeling with regards to the people of Palestine? Or do you feel Hamas has acted only reasonably, honorably, and ethically?
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| I just think what happened to Palestine is completely ridiculous. |
Yes, it is, and it's the result of international forces preventing Israelis from simply annexing the entire region and governing it properly. |
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Hyeon Een
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| I support the state of Palestine ... |
The State of Palestine has never existed. Supporting a non-existent state over one that exists seems highly dubious.
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| ... and the people of Palestine to have a right to live and have freedom, etc. The existance of Israel doesn't allow for that. |
That's not true. In fact, the wellbeing of the people of Palestine would be best achieved by giving the entire region to Israel and incorporating its Palestinian denizens as Israeli citizens. It would grant them the highest standard of living they could possibly expect living in the region, it would allow them to live their lives in a relatively well-run nation, and Israel grants its non-Jewish citizens personal, economic, and political rights.
Support for a Palestinian nation is support for Palestinian suffering.
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| I am sure many individual people of Israel are good people, but due to the gov't and army's actions, I feel no sympathy for what happens to them. |
Why do the actions of Hamas not leave you with a similar feeling with regards to the people of Palestine? Or do you feel Hamas has acted only reasonably, honorably, and ethically?
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| I just think what happened to Palestine is completely ridiculous. |
Yes, it is, and it's the result of international forces preventing Israelis from simply annexing the entire region and governing it properly. |
Would not a muslim dominant electorate lead to a very different Israel?
They're going to out-birth them at some point so it's more a question of when, not if. It'll be exciting to see democracy cut off in favor of support for a country based on an ethnic or religious state.
It'll also lead to the inevitable decision that a famous Western country who espouses democracy decides to support a non-democratic state for biblical reasons. There's probably a couple of decades yet, but it will happen. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Fanatics killing fanatics. The sympathy ship has sailed. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I like matzo |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Invite all of the Israelis to live in middle America. There's plenty of space. Citizenship granted. Even transport some of the holy land.
End of conflict. |
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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| NYC_Gal wrote: |
Invite all of the Israelis to live in middle America. There's plenty of space. Citizenship granted. Even transport some of the holy land.
End of conflict. |
But then they'll conspire to take over middle America's investment banking and media. |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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They could improve it. It's in the toilet as it is.
The hummus would also help with the obesity problem. See? Win win! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hyeon Een wrote: |
Would not a muslim dominant electorate lead to a very different Israel?
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This depends on the people in power currently. If they wisely entrench the positive aspects of Jewish character in the law, and couple those aspects with solid respect for human rights and tolerance of non-Jews, the character of Israel as a non-Muslim state could be preserved even in the eventuality that Muslims became a majority. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
The State of Palestine has never existed. Supporting a non-existent state over one that exists seems highly dubious.
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Wasn't Israel "formed" with the support of the world powers? Wasn't it non-existent before 1947? Did it have any more historic right to this land at that time? Maybe it did, maybe it didn't(I honestly don't know). But it could also be called "highly dubious". |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
Wasn't Israel "formed" with the support of the world powers?
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Re-formed.
| Sector7G wrote: |
Wasn't it non-existent before 1947?
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Well, it didn't exist for a long time before then.
| Sector7G wrote: |
| Did it have any more historic right to this land at that time? Maybe it did, maybe it didn't(I honestly don't know). But it could also be called "highly dubious". |
A fine conversation to have had before Israel was formed. A meaningless one now; Israel currently exists, and has for some time, and all considerations must take that fact into account. Presently, Israel is an existing, functioning state that provides a decent quality of life to its citizens. Presently, Palestine is a political non-entity, and the people who would make up a hypothetical Palestinian state have a history of voting for leaders who support terrorist attacks and the antagonization of Israel, something totally incompatible with stability in the region.
Simply airlifting all the Jews out of Israel and giving the area to Palestine is totally unfeasible. Two states residing next to one another is unlikely to work in the long run, especially since the people of Palestine will be exceedingly poor, the best fuel for religious extremism. The last thing the area needs is another Muslim theocracy. No, the best answer is a single state, Jewish in character but supportive, tolerant, and protective of all its citizens regardless of creed. Support for an independent Palestine is support for blood shed, low standard of living, and conflict. Better to unify the region. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Fanatics killing fanatics. The sympathy ship has sailed. |
What nobody else is dying, only fanatics? WTF? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| No, the best answer is a single state, Jewish in character but supportive, tolerant, and protective of all its citizens regardless of creed. Support for an independent Palestine is support for blood shed, low standard of living, and conflict. Better to unify the region. |
Too bad nobody wants that on either side. Never going to happen, although the peace process is the worst sort of bad joke. Maybe if both sides could get some better leadership things could happen. |
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