Korean Job Discussion Forums

[perelandra]

Hello!

I'm having a bit of a disagreement with my co-teacher. I say that the sentence

"He won first place in the race yesterday"

is correct, while she thinks that it should be

"He won the first place in the race yesterday"

I don't know a lot about grammar rules, or what I should reference to check this particular issue.

Any ideas on how to explain myself to her using some well-documented grammar rules? I've thought of just showing her basic ordinal rules, but I don't think that the mere absence of "the" when they discuss first place, second place, and third place is going to convince her.

Thank you for your time, and sorry to bring up such an elementary issue.
^^

[lukas]

[lichtarbeiter]

[The Cosmic Hum]

[Seoulio]

pretty much agree with the last poster.

First place is basically functioning as an adjective.

"he won first place" is a description of his ranking.

As another poster said "he won the first place award" is proper if there is some kind of award for first place, but then you are talking about a noun.

HOwever then it changes again when you are talking about ORDER of things

"He was the first to cross the finish line"
"She was the first one in my class"

[lichtarbeiter]

[daskalos]

I think we could also help to clear it up by thinking of "first" as a determiner, which would obviate the need for an article also.

[Thiuda]

[lichtarbeiter]

[Thiuda]

[MattAwesome]

He won first place. 100%

[perelandra]

Thank you all for your responses! I feel more secure on the subject, now - at least enough to have a reasonable talk about it with my co-teacher.

Aside from the utility factor of your replies for me, though, I also find this all really interesting. Now that I know what to look for, I'll certainly try to read up on the terminology and topics that you've mentioned.

(By all means, please keep the discussion going! I'd like to see what else develops.)

[raewon]

Hi,

I asked a similar question last year. Below are the replies that I
received. Hope they don't create any confusion for you.



Joined: 16 Jun 2009 Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: [grammar ?] won first prize VS. won the first prize
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A student asked which sentence is correct:

He is the boy who won first prize in the contest.
He is the boy who won the first prize in the contest.

Personally, I prefer the first - but aren't they both "correct"? Can anyone
confirm this?

Thanks.

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The Gipkik



Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject:
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Play around with it. He got the last piece of cake. He got the first piece of cake. She bought the first dress. She bought the last dress. She won the first prize in the contest. She won first prize.

They are both correct. She won first prize has taken on an idiomatic meaning from common usage. The former is correct as a grammatical statement, but the latter has superseded grammatical correctness and functions as a short cut/short form method of ranking. He won first prize, second prize, third prize are all acceptable.

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ThingsComeAround



Joined: 07 Nov 2008 Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject:
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The article 'the' isn't necessary here.

Both are fine.

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lifeinkorea



Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: Bupyeong, Incheon Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:04 pm Post subject:
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I think it has to do with order of things or absence of. In baseball, you can steal second base, but I wouldn't say "the second base". There is only one base being stolen.

For awards and trophies, people can come in first, second, and third place. So we have 3 possible prizes and there is hierarchy.

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BreakfastInBed



Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Location: Gyeonggi do Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject:
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Neither is incorrect, however, they mean different things. I think of it as hierarchical versus linear order. "First prize" is the name of the top prize given in a hierarchy of prizes, whereas "the first prize" merely means the first one of however many prizes in a sequence handed out. Although you might win first prize in a competition, the first prize awarded could be third prize.

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Triban



Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject:
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He won first prize.

There probably isn't a rule for it, but listen to actual people actually speak English. No literate person would say He won the first prize, unless there were multiple prizes being given away and He won the first (of many) prizes.

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schwa



Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: sokcho Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:39 pm Post subject:
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I'd say "won first prize" to mean "came in first."

I might use "won the first prize" if I wanted to emphasize the actual prize itself.

[lichtarbeiter]

[Thiuda]