Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Seoulio]

Since I am blasting a guy on another thread who (seemingly) joins everyone in the community who has zero expectations on students to learn, I guess I wanted to open up the comments on that to the board.

See what people thought.

So what's your view on children learning?

1) Those that want to and choose to can learn if they wish?
2) You are there to motivate and encourage those that don't to learn?

I mean in my view the latter is a TEACHER, the former is a LECTURER.

The best teachers I had sure did more than stand up at the front of the class and "teach me stuff" that I was "expected" ( or not) to learn.


The ones who don't want to study are the ones that I attempt to reach the most, and I have had quite a few surprising converts.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[shcforward]

Both the teacher and the student have a responsibility. The teacher has a responsibility to teach even if the students are bad, and the students have the responsibility to learn, even if the teacher is bad.

Nobody wants responsibility.

[jrwhite82]

It is 100% the teacher's responsibility. Teachers, set high attainable goals for ALL your students regardless of ability, interest, race or any other difference. And whatever you do, KEEP TRYING!

[The Gipkik]

Although it is the teacher's responsibility to set up a motivating and secure environment, the classes should be learner-centered. That means the teacher should be engaging students by offering them choices, letting them make decisions (even what we might think of as minor decisions), personalizing the curriculum, creating learner contracts, needs analyses. Too many studies have shown that learner-centered classes are engaged classes, motivated, and communicative--the negotiation of meaning is unavoidable when students make choices and decisions. When the curriculum is set, choices can still be made: what activity should we do first, what animal, sport do you want this activity to focus on, how much time, how many questions, what color...There are an endless number of ways that teachers can keep the students involved and feel ownership.

However, there is no doubt that it is the teacher that needs to encourage and maintain this environment.

[wiganer]

I would say it is 70/30 the responsibility of the student. The reason a student won't or can't learn goes far beyond what happens in a classroom I have found.

I had a university class once who were not for learning whatever I tried. So one day I asked them why they were learning English or chose English as their major and though the reasons were varied, reasons such as 'my parents forced me to learn English' 'because I am not very good at maths'
'I can make lots of money' aren't reason enough to take up a language and learn it to a complexity where you can make it your career. Especially somewhere like China or Korea where there are many English graduates. My better students would say they were learning English through interest or they were intersted in the culture and I believed them as they were the ones who lapped up what I taught them and improved as a result.

And lets face it, if we blamed our tutors for not getting a decent GPA on our degree or 'Its all their fault, I can't speak decent ***** because I had bad teachers and their classes were boring' like a lot of our adult students do over here. They would be laughed off like the child that they are from any conversation involving grown ups.

[Louis VI]

Good teachers hold themselves responsible for all students, seeing a difficult child or rowdy class as a challenge to be met, and a failure in learning as a mistake made in teaching, sometimes based on too ambitious goals, inappropriate methods or some other factor the teacher needs to adapt to.

Bad teachers find the students to be recalcitrant and lazy and blame them for being irresponsible whenever learning has failed to take place. Sometimes structural factors are blamed like class size and room conditions for what is essentially the teacher's inability to assess the kind of lesson and degree of learning possible and working toward facilitating it.

I believe that to be true in the majority of cases. There are no perfect teachers, only those who constantly try and improve, and those who don't.

[dsun1226]

Don't forget the importance parents play into a student's success; if the parents don't give a crap about school, neither will the student.

[Steve_Rogers2008]

[Epik_Teacher]

Since I'm the one he's blasting, let me state the situation. I'm in my 4th year at the same private middle school thru EPIK. Most of the students are poor, rural kids, many are on Korean welfare. Many of them aren't interested in learning, their parents are for the most part poorly educated. The parents by and large are not active in their children's learning, and many probably don't know how to. Probably 10% of them try to learn English, some can't, most just don't care. These kids always do poorly on all midterms and finals, the school is rated rather low academically.

There are some kids who live in a newly made high rise project a few miles up the road. Most of their parents are managers and other professionals. There are some good students among them, but many of them, especially grade 3, are just too cool to study. A lot of them are very rude, disruptive and a pain in the ass.

The teachers can't move around like they do at public schools. Many of them have been at this school for 10+ years. There is serious burnout here. Some are close to retirement and this is the only school they've ever been at. But all around, there are low expectations of the kids. We do what we can, I use use PowerPoint, Adobe Presenter and even some Captivate to make presentations. But results and expectations are low, and I can't change the situation. One of my co-teachers even said as much, "no one expects these kids to be anything but farmers and factory workers." Frankly, with the years I've spent in Korea, I know I won't change anything. I do what I can and don't sweat things like I used to.

I posted something along these lines and for some reason the OP has taken offense. I figure he basically has no life and is one of the many directionless and soulless dweebs who haunt Korea and Dave's ESL. They take up causes for stupid and probably drunken reasons. And eventually they blow away with the wind..............

[thegadfly]

Epik_Teacher,

You should change your name, as you certainly are not a teacher, with that crappy attitude...glad you brought your personal attacks from the other thread to this one, so that I could see your true colors.

I've taught students in much worse situations than you describe, and they have learned -- several of them have been able to get out of much worse situations...dunno if anything I did actually helped them, or if they did it themselves...but they sought me out once they had "made good," because they wanted to shake my hand and thank me. Guess they thought I made a difference, and if they thought I made a difference, who else could argue I didn't?

Don't try to rationalize your own inability as a teacher -- heck, just admit the fact that you don't have the chops, and get out of the job. No shame in being in over your head...just get out of the pool, so that the folks that CAN swim have more room. Sounds like you aren't even trying, and pretty much any noob in the first year will likely do just as good, or perhaps a better job of it, since the noob won't "know" it is "pointless to try." Such a person might actually help the students, instead of simply giving up on them, like you have (by your own words).

No wonder you got blasted!

[Epik_Teacher]

I am leaving EPIK after this contract. And I have tried here. But even the Korean teachers for the most part here have given up and just count days to their retirement. Do you think ESL in Korea is a REAL career? If you do, you're an idiot! Seems to me that EPIK/SMOE are just expensive, limited usefulness, tax payer wastes of money. I expect that 2011 will be the end of it, anyway. just like the other times EPIK has folded and reformed. Only this time, I doubt they'll have the money to waste.

And you people who think you're professionals or going to change things, wake up! Teachers said the same things about teaching ESL in Korea back in the 1960's that they say now.

[jrwhite82]

[Seoulio]

What a guy eh, anyway THIS thread isnt about him, I said what I wanted to say to him on the other thread ( bye bye little spy)

Oh incidentally because he raised it, NOt many of us consider it a career, for a select few it is ( granted with litle to no room for advancement, except in pay) but it is a job. You either take your job seriously or you don't.

I personlly tire of all the paycheck teachers who want to use whatever excuse or justifcation they can to take the path of least resistance.

Oh and also I am a non drinker, so a drunken rant, no sorry

[Seoulio]

nd just for the record, this is what I said. I started out quite civil, even said that HE MAY NOT be doing it, but it ounded like he may have been.

In his retort he basically calls me stupid and uneducated and should go back to my job at McDOnalds flipping burgers

[Seoulio]

Some very good responses before.

Yes Of course the parenst also have a huge role, one that often undermines or strengthens what we are trying to do.