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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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Last year, two left wing British academics had a book published called The Spirit Level. Very popular, it advocated that more economically-equal societies performed better than economically-unequal societies in numerous ways.
Thankfully, someone had the patience to go through the whole book, fact-checking. That person wrote 'The Spirit Level Delusion: Fact-Checking the Left's New Theory of Everything', published in May of this year. Here's a short discussion by the author (the former link - the blog of the book - goes into greater detail).
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In a world of infinite complexities, The Spirit Level offers us reassuring simplicity. According to [it], almost everything can be explained by a single factor. Infant mortality, murder, health, obesity, mental illness, trust, drug use and even recycling all have a common cause: inequality. Not - it must stressed - poverty or deprivation, but the psychological damage of living in a country with a wide gap between rich and poor. Pick any social problem, say the authors, and it will be worse in unequal hell-holes like Australia and America.
The twin elephants in the room are Singapore and Hong Kong, both of which perform superbly under almost every criteria despite having the most extreme gulf between rich and poor. In fact, these two bastions of unabashed capitalism do conspicuously well. Or rather they would do, if [the authors] showed us the data. Singapore is mentioned only occasionally in The Spirit Level, and Hong Kong not at all.
Also notable by their absence are places like Slovenia, South Korea and the Czech Republic, all of which enjoy Nordic levels of income equality without reaching Nordic levels of wellbeing... (but to say that [Scandinavians] �do better� requires the reader to turn a blind eye to the high rates of divorce, crime, alcoholism, mental illness and suicide that are also characteristic of these countries).
Turning a blind eye is something [The Spirit Level has] to do rather often. Like any monotheistic belief system, inconvenient facts which challenge the faith must be ignored. Consequently, they dwell on the tendency of �less equal� countries to have larger prison populations without ever mentioning the more pertinent (and not coincidental) fact that these countries also happen to have lower crime rates. They tell us that citizens of egalitarian nations are more philanthropic because their governments put more money aside for foreign aid, without mentioning that these people also give significantly less money to charity. They tell us that infant mortality, homicide, heart disease and teen births are caused by inequality, and yet these problems have become much less common in the very countries where inequality has increased most sharply.
As any statistician knows, if you torture the data it will confess to anything, but � as I show in my new book The Spirit Level Delusion � the facts simply do not support the idea that people in �less equal� countries have shorter lives, worse mental health, longer working hours, less respect for women, wider waist-bands or substandard educations. Nor are people in more egalitarian nations any happier or any less likely to be raped or murdered.
The only real difference between �less equal� and �more equal� countries is the size of the government and the amount it takes in tax, rising from less than 15 per cent of gross domestic product in Singapore to almost 50 per cent in Denmark. The fact that Singapore outperforms Denmark under almost every measure of what makes a country �do better� only serves to underline the folly of The Spirit Level and, by association, the futility of its political agenda. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
As any statistician knows, if you torture the data it will confess to anything, but � as I show in my new book The Spirit Level Delusion � the facts simply do not support the idea that people in �less equal� countries have shorter lives, worse mental health, longer working hours, less respect for women, wider waist-bands or substandard educations. Nor are people in more egalitarian nations any happier or any less likely to be raped or murdered. |
Exactly..
a woman in New York can be far less happy at having to walk 20 minutes to work... than a woman in Africa who has to walk 5 km a day to fetch water.
The first also inhales traffic pollution on her journey and eats processed foods; the latter breathes clean air and is physically fitter.
who has the superior lifestyle? |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:06 am Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
As any statistician knows, if you torture the data it will confess to anything, but � as I show in my new book The Spirit Level Delusion � the facts simply do not support the idea that people in �less equal� countries have shorter lives, worse mental health, longer working hours, less respect for women, wider waist-bands or substandard educations. Nor are people in more egalitarian nations any happier or any less likely to be raped or murdered. |
Exactly..
a woman in New York can be far less happy at having to walk 20 minutes to work... than a woman in Africa who has to walk 5 km a day to fetch water.
The first also inhales traffic pollution on her journey and eats processed foods; the latter breathes clean air and is physically fitter.
who has the superior lifestyle? |
Stop making stuff up.
The woman in New york might be less happy (how do you even measure that?) but by every standardised measure she is far healthier than the woman in Africa. She will live longer, She will spend less time incapacitated by illness, Her children won't die in child hood at the same rate. Every single indicator will be positive for the woman in New York. And the woman in Africa would swap places with her in a heart beat.
Besides that, I think you might have completely missed the point of the article. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:46 am Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Senior wrote: |
The woman in New york might be less happy (how do you even measure that?) |
"signs of agitation and distress" 
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| but by every standardised measure she is far healthier than the woman in Africa. |
A cake mix of toxic-chemical make-up cannot cover the fact that the average westerner has a less-toned frame and eats a host of processed fast food. Nutrionists urge people worldwide to eat fresh fruit and vegetables. In the third world following this advice is a daily reality.
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| She will spend less time incapacitated by illness |
Actually westerners are artificially kept alive way past their sell by date by medical tricks. They are forced to suffer longer than those in the third world. You're saying that by keeping victims suspended in a state of interminable physical agony is a good thing? 20 years on a life support machine is a 'good standard of living to you?
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| And the woman in Africa would swap places with her in a heart beat. |
possibly, but only because the woman in new york with her shopping habits has helped to create global warming that is making the lives of thrid world women more difficult. Global warming is triggered in the west, but its effects first felt in e.g. africa. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:34 am Post subject: |
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I'm in the middle of reading another debunking (pdf) of The Spirit Level
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| Of 20 statistical claims examined, 14 are shown to be spurious or invalid, and in only one case (the association internationally between infant mortality and income inequality) does the evidence unambiguously support [The Spirit Level's] hypothesis. Contrary to their claims, income inequality does not explain international homicide rates, childhood conflict, women�s status, foreign aid donations, life expectancy, adult obesity, childhood obesity, literacy and numeracy, patents, or social mobility rates |
Last edited by Sergio Stefanuto on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:35 am Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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None of this has anything to do with the OP. You are either trying to derail the thread, or spectacularly missing the point.
| Junior wrote: |
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| but by every standardised measure she is far healthier than the woman in Africa. |
A cake mix of toxic-chemical make-up cannot cover the fact that the average westerner has a less-toned frame and eats a host of processed fast food. Nutrionists urge people worldwide to eat fresh fruit and vegetables. In the third world following this advice is a daily reality. |
Utter tosh. Some people in the third world can only afford to eat one meal a day or less. Processed food is much better for you than starvation.
Why do you insist on making stuff up?
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| She will spend less time incapacitated by illness |
Actually westerners are artificially kept alive way past their sell by date by medical tricks. They are forced to suffer longer than those in the third world. You're saying that by keeping victims suspended in a state of interminable physical agony is a good thing? 20 years on a life support machine is a 'good standard of living to you? |
This is true in some cases, but I don't believe it to be the norm. Usually people are well into their 60s before they start consuming medical resources in this way. The average life span of a person in the third world is far less than 60.
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| And the woman in Africa would swap places with her in a heart beat. |
possibly, but only because the woman in new york with her shopping habits has helped to create global warming that is making the lives of thrid world women more difficult. Global warming is triggered in the west, but its effects first felt in e.g. africa. |
Good grief. I'm not going to dignify this with an answer. I'm supposed to be trolling you,not the other way around. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:09 am Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Some people in the third world can only afford to eat one meal a day or less. |
Emphasis on the word 'some". Sure the extreme cases make headlines, but the majority of people in these countries live stable and happy lives.
Korea is a first world nation. Do they all look happy to you?
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| The average life span of a person in the third world is far less than 60. |
not according to the book introduced by the OP.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| the facts simply do not support the idea that people in �less equal� countries have shorter lives |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:12 am Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Some people in the third world can only afford to eat one meal a day or less. |
Emphasis on the word 'some". Sure the extreme cases make headlines, but the majority of people in these countries live stable and happy lives.
Korea is a first world nation. Do they all look happy to you?
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| The average life span of a person in the third world is far less than 60. |
not according to the book introduced by the OP.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| the facts simply do not support the idea that people in �less equal� countries have shorter lives |
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You just confirmed my suspicions. You have in fact spectacularly managed to miss the point.
Unequal does not mean poor. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Senior wrote: |
Unequal does not mean poor. |
Why then were you going on about poor people with nothing to eat then? I was only following your tangent about the third world.
The assertion of the thread is this:
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| the facts simply do not support the idea that people in �less equal� countries have shorter lives, worse mental health, longer working hours, less respect for women, wider waist-bands or substandard educations. Nor are people in more egalitarian nations any happier or any less likely to be raped or murdered. |
Note that many third world countries are included in the "less equal countries".
So obviously... people in third world countries are not necessarily disadvantaged as you ridiculously and pompously claim. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
Unequal does not mean poor. |
Why then were you going on about poor people with nothing to eat then? I was only following your tangent about the third world.
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You are the one who erroneously compared two woman in different parts of the world. How can you even compare an "African" woman and someone from New York. One is a continent the other a city. It doesn't even make sense to make that comparison.
The assertion of the thread is this:
| Quote: |
| the facts simply do not support the idea that people in �less equal� countries have shorter lives, worse mental health, longer working hours, less respect for women, wider waist-bands or substandard educations. Nor are people in more egalitarian nations any happier or any less likely to be raped or murdered. |
Note that many third world countries are included in the "less equal countries".
So obviously... people in third world countries are not necessarily disadvantaged as you ridiculously and pompously claim.[/quote]
You certainly have a romanticized vision of what it means to be poor. I would consider high infant mortality, lower average life spans, poor access to clean drinking water, higher incidence of chronic disease etc to be disadvantages. Now obviously, the rich/middle class within these poor countries don't suffer from these problems, but they are certainly concerns for a large percentage of the population.
This is why we should be worrying about low GDP per capita and not inequality.[/quote] |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Junior is winding you up, Senior. Funnily enough, though, you misunderstood his first reply. He said:
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| who has the superior lifestyle? |
He's saying that the woman in NY has a superior lifestyle. A woman in Africa who has to walk 5 miles just for water can be perfectly happy, whilst a woman in NY on a six figure salary can be totally miserable, but lifestyle is different from subjective happiness. Since then though, Junior has been taking the piss, I think.
In any case, like Senior has said, the topic of the thread is inequality and not poverty.
Country A
Top 20%: $500,000
Bottom 20%: $16,000
Country B
Top 20%: $32,000
Bottom 20%: $10,000
According to The Spirit Level, Country B is a more pleasant society to live in for all concerned, because regardless of the actual economic levels, the gap is smaller. Country B, the hypothesis predicts, will have less obesity, less drug-use, fewer homicides, less other crime, and fewer myriad other social problems - all solely because the gap between the top and the bottom is smaller. Needless to say, this, if true, would appear to vindicate extremely left wing (borderline communist) ideology. But it isn't true. The 'evidence' The Spirit Level gave was sheer junk and it's been torn apart.  |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Most books anywhere on the political spectrum that try to fit everything into an overarching worldview and use statistics as proof are worthless, nothing new here. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Denmark ranks as the happiest nation in the world and its high taxes have a big equalizing effect:
"Those high taxes have another effect. Since a banker can end up taking home as much money as an artist, people don't chose careers based on income or status. 'They have this thing called "Jante-lov," which essentially says, "You're no better then anybody else," ' said Buettner. 'A garbage man can live in a middle-class neighborhood and hold his head high.' "
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1 |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: New Book: 'The Spirit Level Delusion' |
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| Senior wrote: |
This is why we should be worrying about low GDP per capita and not inequality. |
The third world productivity is just fine thank you. All those sweat shops in Bangladesh have probably made every pair of shoes you've ever worn.
the GDP is not the problem. Its that the wealth from it is not shared equally.
You seem quite OK with this unsustainable situation. Your much-touted wonderful first world existence depends on exploiting those poor countries. You probably consume 20 X your fair share of the earths resources, and in doing so are also spurring global warming- the effects of which are mostly felt in the third world. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Kepler wrote: |
Denmark ranks as the happiest nation in the world and its high taxes have a big equalizing effect:
"Those high taxes have another effect. Since a banker can end up taking home as much money as an artist, people don't chose careers based on income or status. 'They have this thing called "Jante-lov," which essentially says, "You're no better then anybody else," ' said Buettner. 'A garbage man can live in a middle-class neighborhood and hold his head high.' "
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1 |
They can only do that because of fairly well administered natural resources. Try and do that in Korea or The States or Ethiopia and watch the results. |
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