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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:47 pm Post subject: Not guilty. The captain who emptied rifle into a schoolgirl. |
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Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl.
I remember the incident. And I remember thinking that he would almost certainly get away with it. 
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An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.
The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.
The manner of Iman's killing, and the revelation of a tape recording in which the captain is warned that she was just a child who was "scared to death", made the shooting one of the most controversial since the Palestinian intifada erupted five years ago even though hundreds of other children have also died.
After the verdict, Iman's father, Samir al-Hams, said the army never intended to hold the soldier accountable.
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.
Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.
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So whats your conclusion?
The Israelis will never convict a soldier?
That they don't discriminate when convicting thier soldiers?
That it might have been an individual personal decesion on his part that was not punished?
What are you trying to say?
Hamas just claimed they killed 4 civilians today, should we expect them to even be charged by anyone let alone convicted by Hamas? |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| That is pretty messed up. Interesting about him being Druze though. Maybe they have some serious hate issues with the Palestinians? Or he was just trying to be even harder than the other soldiers... Either way, I feel awful for that young girl. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.
Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.
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So whats your conclusion?
The Israelis will never convict a soldier?
That they don't discriminate when convicting thier soldiers?
That it might have been an individual personal decesion on his part that was not punished?
What are you trying to say?
Hamas just claimed they killed 4 civilians today, should we expect them to even be charged by anyone let alone convicted by Hamas? |
4 settlers are a touch different than 4 civilians. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: |
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An Israeli or Israelis behave horribly inhumanely, brutally, and fatally against and inhumanely against a Palestinian or Palestinians, and they get away with it.
Isn't that kinda like reporting that the sun rose this morning? surprising this stuff even makes the papers anymore. |
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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, amazing how Israel always gets a free pass. Yes, we know that you suffered in the past. Time to move on and stop brutalizing those Palestinians. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.
Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.
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So whats your conclusion?
The Israelis will never convict a soldier?
That they don't discriminate when convicting thier soldiers?
That it might have been an individual personal decesion on his part that was not punished?
What are you trying to say?
Hamas just claimed they killed 4 civilians today, should we expect them to even be charged by anyone let alone convicted by Hamas? |
4 settlers are a touch different than 4 civilians. |
Are you saying these settlers -- one of whom was pregnant -- were actively-serving military personelle? If not, then no, they aren't a touch different: they were civilians. If so, then they still aren't a touch different, they'd be completely different. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically". But after some of the soldiers under his command went to the Israeli press to give a different version, the military police launched a separate investigation after which he was charged.
Capt R claimed that the soldiers under his command were out to get him because they are Jewish and he is Druze.
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So whats your conclusion?
The Israelis will never convict a soldier?
That they don't discriminate when convicting thier soldiers?
That it might have been an individual personal decesion on his part that was not punished?
What are you trying to say?
Hamas just claimed they killed 4 civilians today, should we expect them to even be charged by anyone let alone convicted by Hamas? |
4 settlers are a touch different than 4 civilians. |
Are you saying these settlers -- one of whom was pregnant -- were actively-serving military personelle? If not, then no, they aren't a touch different: they were civilians. If so, then they still aren't a touch different, they'd be completely different. |
I'm saying that settlers actively put them selves in harms way, serve to undermine the peace process. Many of the settlers are there only quasi-legally, if legally at all. Also many are highly armed and former members of the IDF.
"Israeli settlers committed violence against Palestinians over 500 times during 2007 and the first half of 2008.[110] There is continual conflict between settlers and Palestinians over land, resources and perceived grievances. The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and settler evictions in other areas have triggered settler rioting and attacks against Palestinians in protest. Extremist settlers using a tactic called Price Tagging, if the Government sends police or soldiers to dismantle an outpost that is being built, the settlers make the Palestinian population pay the price.[111]
Israeli human rights group B'Tselem says that the violence is "a means to harass and intimidate Palestinians" and that the evacuations are a necessary part of the peace process. According to B'Tselem that when a building is evacuated by the Israeli government, settlers lash out at Palestinians because they're "easy victims" and as a means to widen the area under settler control.[112] B'Tselem says Israeli authorities "employ an undeclared policy of leniency and compromise" toward settlers who commit violent crime against Palestinians.[113] The United Nations says that Israeli security forces fail to intervene in settler attacks and arrest settlers suspected of violence.[114]
Unlike Palestinians, Israeli civilians living in the Palestinian Territories are not subject to military or local law, but are prosecuted according to Israeli penal law.[115] Haaretz has stated "Israeli society has become accustomed to giving lawbreaking settlers special treatment", noting that no other group could similarly attack Israeli law enforcement agencies without being severely punished.[116]
Olive farming is a major industry and employer in the Palestinian West Bank and olive trees are a common target of settler violence, with over 10.000 olive trees destroyed by settlers in 2007-2010.[117][118]
There are a number of extremist groups associated with the settler movement. Gush Emunim Underground was a terrorist organization linked to the settler activist group Gush Emunim. They carried out attacks against Jewish students and Palestinian officials, attempted to bomb a bus and planned an attack on the Dome on the Rock.[119][120]
According to B'Tselem 45 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians between 2000 and 2008,[121] of which the vast majority would be settler-related.
Palestinians have accused Israel of "encouraging and enabling" settler violence in a bid to provoke Palestinian riots and violence in retaliation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
So they are a touch different than other Israeli civilians. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| I'm saying that settlers actively put them selves in harms way, serve to undermine the peace process. |
Yes, and a woman who walks around at night in a miniskirt is virtually asking to be raped, right?
I can understand, intellectually, the anti-Israeli position with regards to national politics. When you people start shrugging off civilian murders because they "put themselves in harms way," though, it quickly becomes obvious you don't really give a damn about human life at all, but rather are simply harping your cause. The intellectual dishonesty is staggering.
| Leon wrote: |
| So they are a touch different than other Israeli civilians. |
Not in any way that even remotely justifies their murder. These people are civilians. Hamas murdered these civilians. That's what happened here. Get over your hatred of Israel and just accept that.
I want to add one more thing. Data like this:
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| According to B'Tselem 45 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians between 2000 and 2008,[121] of which the vast majority would be settler-related. |
is completely irrelevant to whether or not Hamas harming these people is acceptable. Israeli civilians (and note, your own source labels these people as civilians) who harm or kill Palestinians are guilty of a crime, but that doesn't make it acceptable for Hamas agents to summarily murder them. Settlers killed in self-defense are one thing; settlers gunned down as some sort of revenge, or as casualties in an on-going conflict, is quite another. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I'm saying that settlers actively put them selves in harms way, serve to undermine the peace process. |
Yes, and a woman who walks around at night in a miniskirt is virtually asking to be raped, right?
I can understand, intellectually, the anti-Israeli position with regards to national politics. When you people start shrugging off civilian murders because they "put themselves in harms way," though, it quickly becomes obvious you don't really give a damn about human life at all, but rather are simply harping your cause. The intellectual dishonesty is staggering.
| Leon wrote: |
| So they are a touch different than other Israeli civilians. |
Not in any way that even remotely justifies their murder. These people are civilians. Hamas murdered these civilians. That's what happened here. Get over your hatred of Israel and just accept that. |
It is a tragedy in the sense that any loss of human life is a tragedy. I can accept that it is murder and it is unjustified in the way that all killing is. It is not an intellectually dishonest view to say that settlers are an antagonistic group that Palestinians could reasonably view as an enemy. The actions of the settles have real consequences for the Palestinians, it's not entirely out of line to think of them as an invading force.
This is probably an outgrowth of Hamas being froze out of the peace process, which is a mistake because, well, there can't be a meaningful peace without them. The gunmen are thugs, but they aren't any less thugs than the many of the IDF. State sanction in this conflict verges on worthless as far as morality goes. Killing a settler is less of an antagonistic act than killing a citizen in mainland Israel, that is the difference. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
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| According to B'Tselem 45 Palestinians were killed by Israeli civilians between 2000 and 2008,[121] of which the vast majority would be settler-related. |
is completely irrelevant to whether or not Hamas harming these people is acceptable. Israeli civilians (and note, your own source labels these people as civilians) who harm or kill Palestinians are guilty of a crime, but that doesn't make it acceptable for Hamas agents to summarily murder them. Settlers killed in self-defense are one thing; settlers gunned down as some sort of revenge, or as casualties in an on-going conflict, is quite another. |
Where did I say it was acceptable for Hamas to kill people. It's not acceptable, but it isn't arbitrary. The opening of settlements is in and of itself a antagonistic act, so therefore the is push back. Many of the settlements aren't legal, I don't know if the four were legal or illegal settlers, but I do think it makes a difference. |
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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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It seems the Captain knew she wasn't a threat.
That said it was a millitary incident and she COULD have been a geurillla carrying a mine / grenade / IED etc.
Fox's analogy is completely misleading.
It should be more along the lines of
"Yes, and a woman who walks around at night in a Brazillian Slum full of crack dealers, rapists and gangbangers in a miniskirt is virtually asking to be raped, right?"
More fitting to the circumstances I believe. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| A civilian is a civilian, regardless of where they decide to live. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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-Edit: Missed that Leon had made two posts.
| Leon wrote: |
| It is not an intellectually dishonest view to say that settlers are an antagonistic group that Palestinians could reasonably view as an enemy. The actions of the settles have real consequences for the Palestinians, it's not entirely out of line to think of them as an invading force. |
It is intellectually dishonest. Justification for killing civilians is justification for killing civilians. It's that simple; there's no nuance here. Murder of civilians is murder of civilians. The fact that these settlements at times result in deaths (both Palestinian and Israeli) is certainly a factor the Israeli government needs to take into account with regards to it's decisions regarding them, but with regard to the incident itself, it's meaningless.
| Leon wrote: |
| Where did I say it was acceptable for Hamas to kill people. |
Someone pointed out Hamas murdered four civilians. Your response was that they were settlers, and thus, "a touch different" than civilians. Now, either their "difference" mitigates to some extent the severity of Hamas' offense, or it doesn't. If it does, then you are to some extent lessening Hamas' culpability based on where these people chose to live. If it doesn't, then your statement was wholly irrelevant to the conversation. I personally don't think you're in the business of making random irrelevant statements, so I very reasonably interpretted your statement as I did.
| Leon wrote: |
| It's not acceptable, but it isn't arbitrary. |
Murder being less arbitrary doesn't make it more tolerable or ethical. Most murders aren't arbitrary; murderers generally have a reason. Again, you're trying to mince words here in defense of Hamas. Perhaps you aren't trying to excuse them completely, but you are trying to excuse them to some extent (or, alternatively, you are just pointing out random facts about the situation which have no real import within the context of the discussion, but we both know you aren't).
| Leon wrote: |
| The opening of settlements is in and of itself a antagonistic act, so therefore the is push back. |
And here we are with another attempt to excuse Hamas, at least to some degree.
| Leon wrote: |
| Many of the settlements aren't legal, I don't know if the four were legal or illegal settlers, but I do think it makes a difference. |
Mises sums up my response to this perfectly:
| mises wrote: |
| A civilian is a civilian, regardless of where they decide to live. |
| hotwire wrote: |
Fox's analogy is completely misleading.
It should be more along the lines of
"Yes, and a woman who walks around at night in a Brazillian Slum full of crack dealers, rapists and gangbangers in a miniskirt is virtually asking to be raped, right?"
More fitting to the circumstances I believe. |
You say my analogy is completely misleading, then you slightly modify it in such a fashion that the overall point remains exactly the same: regardless of what the woman wears, or where she choses to walk, she doesn't deserve to be raped. Not even a little bit. The same goes for the settlers; where ever they chose to live, they don't deserve to be murdered by Hamas. Not even a little bit.
Last edited by Fox on Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hotwire
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Location: Multiverse
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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^^^^
In an ideal world, sure. I'd like an ideal world myself, but we are stuck with this one.
And in this one a young girl walking into a rio slum wearing the clothing you described is going to get in trouble more likely than not. And young girls are or should be aware of this. Same goes for Palestinians venturing dangerously close to Iraeli Military compounds etc. The guy that pulled the trigger IS A SCUMBAG still and this was a tragic waste of innocent life, but the girl also should have known better or had some supervision. In the war maddened General's eyes she was an intruder; an alien; a sabatuer; an enemy; a threat.
Ignorance based on idealisation of how one wants the world to be is a dangerous thing. |
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