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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject: Rape by deception |
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I'm surprised this hasn't made the forum yet.
Anyway, a Palestinian Arab had a 'quickie' with an Israeli woman. She apparantly thought he was a Jew, and then realised he wasn't. She seemed to have withdrawn her consent after the fact.
I did have some sympathy for her initially, because the initial reports made it sound as if he had advertised himself as Jewish and truly looking for a longterm relationship. It sounded as if they had struck up some sort of relationship before sex and that he had put some effort into wooing her. I really do think it sucks that a lot of men tell all sorts of lies to get women into bed, so while I didn't agree with the charge of rape - and think it cheapens the experience of real rape victims - I did think he had it coming to him just a little teeny bit. I don't believe in the charge 'rape by deception' but I wouldn't be sorry to see a much lesser charge for men who deceive women into sleeping with them. Though having said that, I don't see how such a law could be enforced.
Yet later reports suggest that she didn't ask him if he was a Jew, and that she wanted to jump into bed with him right away. So, since it seems she didn't put much effort into verifying that he was what she wanted him to be, WTF? I think she must be a bit nutty, and it makes a mockery of the court that sentenced him.
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Last week the married father of two from east Jerusalem was sentenced to 18 months in jail for the "rape by deception" of a Jewish woman who claimed she would not have had sex with him had she known he was an Arab. What might have been a tawdry episode � casting neither Kushour nor the woman in a favourable light � exploded into a debate in Israel about racism, sexual mores and justice.
"I am paying the price for a mistake that she made," Kushour, 30, told the Observer. "I was shocked at the sentence � it shows a very vivid and clear racism." The message from the judge, he says, was that "because you are an Arab and you didn't make that clear, we are going to punish you".
In his verdict, Judge Zvi Segal conceded that it was not "a classical rape by force". He added: "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated. The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price � the sanctity of their bodies and souls." |
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A woman in her 20s struck up a conversation as he left the shop to return to his job delivering legal papers around Jerusalem by scooter. "She said 'you have a nice bike' and other things which I don't remember." Within minutes, he says, he realised that her interest was not confined to small talk.
Kushour speaks fluent, unaccented Hebrew, as do many Palestinians living and working in Jerusalem. The woman asked his name and Kushour replied "Dudu" � a common Israeli name. "Since I was a kid everyone calls me Dudu � even my wife calls me Dudu. It's a nickname." At no point, he says, did the woman � who gave her name as Maya � ask if he was Jewish, although he has acknowledged that he said he was single.
The pair went to a small roof area in a nearby office block. "When we were having sex, she was worried that someone would see us, but she never told me to stop. She was more than willing � she initiated it."
It has been suggested that Kushour presented himself as a bachelor interested in a long-term relationship. If that had been Maya's concern, Kushour points out, she might have asked him more about his background. After the brief encounter, Kushour tapped Maya's mobile number into his phone and left. "I didn't treat her like garbage � this is what she wanted."
Unknown to him, Maya contacted the police after the encounter to lodge a complaint. Kushour says he doesn't know how or when she realised he was not Jewish. The woman was given a medical examination, presented in court, which showed, according to Kushour, no signs of force or injury.
Six weeks later Kushour was idly flicking through numbers in his mobile's address book. "I saw 'Maya' and I thought 'who is Maya?' I had already forgotten about her. I rang the number to see who it was, and then I realised it was the girl. I said 'Can I see you?' and we arranged to meet."
Maya didn't show up and didn't respond to Kushour's calls and texts. But, crucially, she now had a vital piece of information for the pursuit of her complaint � his contact details.
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Saber Kushour: 'My conviction for "rape by deception" has ruined my life'
Last edited by Big_Bird on Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:05 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| This is an absolutely unacceptable court ruling. I cannot even imagine this happening in Korea (Don't get me wrong... I like Korea). |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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In a case like this, I reckon it is rape:
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Without the new legislation, police and prosecutors are virtually helpless when someone reports a rape that occurred because the victim was deceived or tricked into consenting. Legislators cited a case in western Massachusetts in which a woman consented to intercourse with her boyfriend's brother because he claimed to be the woman's boyfriend.
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Well, its a sad fact that the US has gradually been losing balance, whether being too much to the left or too much to the right. Anyways, if deception is the only thing involved, then that is too much meddling by the law with people's personal lives.
Don't get me wrong. I am not at all for men to be playboys, but once again, these sorts of personal matters should not be subject to the law. And further, it would be a waste of resources to start prosecuting people for these types of cases. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rape by deception |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I'm surprised this hasn't made the forum yet. |
It was discussed here. Everyone except Summer Wine thought it was a disgrace. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: Re: Rape by deception |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| I'm surprised this hasn't made the forum yet. |
It was discussed here. Everyone except Summer Wine thought it was a disgrace. |
Hidden away on some distantly related thread, then.
I suspect Summer Wine of being female. If she is indeed female, I get why she had some sympathy for the verdict. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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We've been talking about it for days on the Amnesty thread. While I am delighted you are not knee-jerk taking her side, I shouldn't be surprised you feel the man deserves some punishment. C'mon, BB, these are just some of the games that members of the opposite "camps" have been playing with each other since time immemorial.
But I hate to see a perfectly good thread go to waste, so I'll take this opportunity to ask your opinion of another bizarre case, the 30-second rapist.
| Quote: |
As Ibbs was nearing ejaculation, Watson suddenly withdrew her consent to sex (so she later claimed) and tried to push Ibbs away. He continued for a short time. Too late, he was trapped.
He was charged with sexual assault and found guilty under the new law. The judge found that Ibbs had continued sexual intercourse for about thirty seconds without consent (for which he was later dubbed the 30-second rapist).
Judge Geoffrey Kennedy (pictured) sentenced him to four years imprisonment. |
To make matters worse, as it turns out the man's wife had put the woman up to it 
BB, come on, please admit it. When it comes to sex, women got men by the balls. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
We've been talking about it for days on the Amnesty thread. While I am delighted you are not knee-jerk taking her side, I shouldn't be surprised you feel the man deserves some punishment. C'mon, BB, these are just some of the games that members of the opposite "camps" have been playing with each other since time immemorial.
But I hate to see a perfectly good thread go to waste, so I'll take this opportunity to ask your opinion of another bizarre case, the 30-second rapist.
| Quote: |
As Ibbs was nearing ejaculation, Watson suddenly withdrew her consent to sex (so she later claimed) and tried to push Ibbs away. He continued for a short time. Too late, he was trapped.
He was charged with sexual assault and found guilty under the new law. The judge found that Ibbs had continued sexual intercourse for about thirty seconds without consent (for which he was later dubbed the 30-second rapist).
Judge Geoffrey Kennedy (pictured) sentenced him to four years imprisonment. |
To make matters worse, as it turns out the man's wife had put the woman up to it
BB, come on, please admit it. When it comes to sex, women got men by the balls. |
A woman should be able to stop at any time if she suddenly finds she doesn't want it. Maybe she started to fear the consequences of him ejaculating. Pregnancy. Disease. Maybe it just felt awful and she couldn't bear it any more. Maybe she was gritting her teeth and starting to cry. She had every right to ask him to stop. Sex is a different experience for a woman. Sometimes it is really wonderful - but only in the right circumstances. In the wrong circumstances it can be truly awful.
I didn't take in the sentence at first. 4 years imprisonment is extremely harsh. I would have sentenced him to some sort of educational program. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
A woman should be able to stop at any time if she suddenly finds she doesn't want it. Maybe she started to fear the consequences of him ejaculating. Pregnancy. Disease. Maybe it just felt awful and she couldn't bear it any more. Maybe she was gritting her teeth and starting to cry. She had every right to ask him to stop. Sex is a different experience for a woman. Sometimes it is really wonderful - but only in the right circumstances. In the wrong circumstances it can be truly awful.
I didn't take in the sentence at first. 4 years imprisonment is extremely harsh. I would have sentenced him to some sort of educational program. |
Did you also miss the part about it all being a plot by the woman and the guy's wife (just happened to be best friends, btw)? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
A woman should be able to stop at any time if she suddenly finds she doesn't want it. Maybe she started to fear the consequences of him ejaculating. Pregnancy. Disease. Maybe it just felt awful and she couldn't bear it any more. Maybe she was gritting her teeth and starting to cry. She had every right to ask him to stop. Sex is a different experience for a woman. Sometimes it is really wonderful - but only in the right circumstances. In the wrong circumstances it can be truly awful.
I didn't take in the sentence at first. 4 years imprisonment is extremely harsh. I would have sentenced him to some sort of educational program. |
Did you also miss the part about it all being a plot by the woman and the guy's wife (just happened to be best friends, btw)? |
It doesn't matter. Is it a crime to have sex with your friend's husband? No. It may not be in the best taste, but it doesn't mean that once she commenced that she no longer had autonomy over her own body and had to continue with an activity she could no longer bear. |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
We've been talking about it for days on the Amnesty thread. While I am delighted you are not knee-jerk taking her side, I shouldn't be surprised you feel the man deserves some punishment. C'mon, BB, these are just some of the games that members of the opposite "camps" have been playing with each other since time immemorial.
But I hate to see a perfectly good thread go to waste, so I'll take this opportunity to ask your opinion of another bizarre case, the 30-second rapist.
| Quote: |
As Ibbs was nearing ejaculation, Watson suddenly withdrew her consent to sex (so she later claimed) and tried to push Ibbs away. He continued for a short time. Too late, he was trapped.
He was charged with sexual assault and found guilty under the new law. The judge found that Ibbs had continued sexual intercourse for about thirty seconds without consent (for which he was later dubbed the 30-second rapist).
Judge Geoffrey Kennedy (pictured) sentenced him to four years imprisonment. |
To make matters worse, as it turns out the man's wife had put the woman up to it
BB, come on, please admit it. When it comes to sex, women got men by the balls. |
A woman should be able to stop at any time if she suddenly finds she doesn't want it. Maybe she started to fear the consequences of him ejaculating. Pregnancy. Disease. Maybe it just felt awful and she couldn't bear it any more. Maybe she was gritting her teeth and starting to cry. She had every right to ask him to stop. Sex is a different experience for a woman. Sometimes it is really wonderful - but only in the right circumstances. In the wrong circumstances it can be truly awful.
I didn't take in the sentence at first. 4 years imprisonment is extremely harsh. I would have sentenced him to some sort of educational program. |
Shouldn't the woman also be sentenced to an educational program? Really, she should have also thought about the potential consequences of unprotected sex beforehand. I am assuming it was unprotected since you are suggesting she wanted it to stop 30 seconds earlier since she was worried about getting pregnant.
Don't get me wrong. I am very sympathetic to real classic cases of rape and molestation. But the sorts of cases we are discussing were decided a in black and white mindset without taking into consideration the actual greyness of the circumstances. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
We've been talking about it for days on the Amnesty thread. While I am delighted you are not knee-jerk taking her side, I shouldn't be surprised you feel the man deserves some punishment. C'mon, BB, these are just some of the games that members of the opposite "camps" have been playing with each other since time immemorial.
But I hate to see a perfectly good thread go to waste, so I'll take this opportunity to ask your opinion of another bizarre case, the 30-second rapist.
| Quote: |
As Ibbs was nearing ejaculation, Watson suddenly withdrew her consent to sex (so she later claimed) and tried to push Ibbs away. He continued for a short time. Too late, he was trapped.
He was charged with sexual assault and found guilty under the new law. The judge found that Ibbs had continued sexual intercourse for about thirty seconds without consent (for which he was later dubbed the 30-second rapist).
Judge Geoffrey Kennedy (pictured) sentenced him to four years imprisonment. |
To make matters worse, as it turns out the man's wife had put the woman up to it
BB, come on, please admit it. When it comes to sex, women got men by the balls. |
A woman should be able to stop at any time if she suddenly finds she doesn't want it. Maybe she started to fear the consequences of him ejaculating. Pregnancy. Disease. Maybe it just felt awful and she couldn't bear it any more. Maybe she was gritting her teeth and starting to cry. She had every right to ask him to stop. Sex is a different experience for a woman. Sometimes it is really wonderful - but only in the right circumstances. In the wrong circumstances it can be truly awful.
I didn't take in the sentence at first. 4 years imprisonment is extremely harsh. I would have sentenced him to some sort of educational program. |
Shouldn't the woman also be sentenced to an educational program? Really, she should have also thought about the potential consequences of unprotected sex beforehand. I am assuming it was unprotected since you are suggesting she wanted it to stop 30 seconds earlier since was worried about getting pregnant.
Don't get me wrong. I am very sympathetic to real classic cases of rape and molestation. But the sorts of cases we are discussing were decided a in black and white mindset without taking into consideration the actual greyness of the circumstances. |
I don't know what was going on her head. I just suggested a few reasons why she might really have needed him to stop. I have to wonder at her age and intelligence level frankly. But, if she said stop, the law should be behind her right to have that request granted immediately. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| The judge found that Ibbs had continued sexual intercourse for about thirty seconds without consent (for which he was later dubbed the 30-second rapist). |
Farcical. Out of control.
As usual, laws intended to achieve good intentions are wide open to abuse, offsetting any good brought about. |
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