Korean Job Discussion Forums

[whome?]

I speak two languages fluently, and have comprehension ability in a few others. I grew up studying in French immersion. All of my language training tells me that the Korean system for English could be improved dramatically.

I've spoken to MAs and PhDs in linguistic as well as those with higher degrees and training in TESL. Everyone seems to agree that the Korean system can and should be dramatically improved.

So anyone can chime in, but I'd be particularly interested in hearing from people like me who are bi or multi lingual due to education, rather than growing up in a household that spoke a language other than english.

[spyro25]

koreans wont do immersion. simple as that. its been tried and failed.

[Olivencia]

Based on my experience 99% of their attempt at language acquisition is either a charade or terrible ignorance in their approach.

[PRagic]

Ok, Olivencia, but let's build on that and try to do so constructively:

1) Make learning English optional. A second/third language fluency should be mandatory for high school and university graduation, but the language shouldn't have to be English. Kindergarten? Elementary school? Give the kids a break! Let supply and demand have a shot at motivating the students. Of course, this opens up the whole new bag of worms that is 'other languages'.

2) Decrease the number of students in foreign language classrooms (15-20 max, fewer when possible).

3) Hire qualified, certified teachers only. Non-native speakers will have to pass spoken fluency exams.

4) Emphasize speaking in the classroom. Communicative ability should be the goal.

The ESL education process here, both in the public and private sectors, is disfunctional to say the least. It needs to be gutted. In most cases of success, whatever the target language, it is a personally motivated student who has continual access to native speakers who succeeds in developing their communicative ability. More and more of these kids are spending more and more time abroad, and this is where they're picking up their English.

[littlelisa]

[Olivencia]

Hello PRagic,

You have good ideas but very very few people care here. They are going to do it "their way" in learning this language. They have been doing it their way here for decades and the obvious results are disasterous. Rather than thinking outside the box that drastic changes are needed the mindset here is....keep doing the same thing but more of it.

[Unposter]

I am not bi-lingual so I am not sure I am "qualified" to speak on the topic. But, I feel compelled to talk about my own experience as a language teacher.

First of all, I have seen many Koreans become bi-lingual Korean/English, including my wife. I have always taken a professional interest when I have met Koreans who speak English well and I always ask them about their experiences learning the language. Here is a somewhat informal review of what such Koreans have said to me:

1) All of those who have succeeded did it by studying communicatively. (They have had lots of experience speaking English).

2) All had opportunities to speak English outside the classroom in natural settings.

3) Many but not all have had extensive experience outside of Korea.

4) None had only one teacher.

5) Some talk about having a good relationship with a teacher or teachers but none said they learned English because of any one teacher.

6) Many talked about their "pride" in their ability to learn English. IMPO, many are good learners of language or where highly motivated. Many of them were knowledgeable or fluent of languages other than English.

7) Many of them were "pushed" by their parents to learn English.

Generally, when asked what was their "secret" to learning English many said things such as, "I just tried to speak English." "I just always liked speaking English." Learning English grammar is very important." "I spent a lot of time reading English, including spending a lot of time on TOEIC reading." "I was just good at English." "I had a lot of private tutors."

9) Interestingly enough, many successful English speakers that I have met did not start very young - many started in middle school. IMO, exposure to language not the age of exposure was important. In other words, these were not necessarilly students who learned in elementary school or younger. Exposure in their teen years or early twenties was often enough.

Again, IMPO:

1) Unless Korea becomes an officially bi-lingual country where education (learning) takes place in both languages, any policy of bi-lingualism is doomed to utter failure.

2) Under the current system, students who are natural learners, highly motivated or "pushed" by their parents or who are heavilly exposed to English education (Hakwons and other private education) do learn to communicate in the English language, sometimes with amazing and eloquent effectiveness. Others are left behind in the language "gap."

3) Teachers are rarely an important factor in language learning. Materials and exposure (same thing) and motivation and interest are much more reliable factors in determining language development. Yes, teachers can contribute to motivation and materials but imho rarely make that much difference.

4) If I were a member of the Ministry of Education, I would spend more money on creating "environments" for English education than on teacher training and recruitment. This is not to say that teacher education is not important but I would focus more on learning environments.

5) I think schools which provide content in English are more effective in teaching language than those that teach more traditional forms of language education.

[Old Gil]

-- make children motivated to learn the language on their own

-- cut class sizes

--get the parents out of the process, they freak about useless vocabulary test numbers that mean nothing

-- eliminate or rehaul the testing system

-- Eliminate or rehaul the Korean mindset that gives rise to the testing system

-- raise children who grow up into adults who are not mortified about being wrong once in a while AND IN PUBLIC (THE HORROR)

[zipper]

[whome?]

The opportunity to speak and classes sizes are two major factors. I think the usage/application of NETs also needs to change. But the one change that would make the biggest difference, but would also necessitate overhauling the entire system, is testing speaking and writing skills. No one learns to speak a language in school when the only testing method is scantron multiple choice tests.

I have a former student who is at a foreign language HS now. She emails me asking for help all the time. The curriculum at her HS is FAR FAR different than the curriculum at most Korean HS. Debates. Public speaking. Presentations. All counting and forming a major part of her actual grade. It's changes of this nature that really could make a big, if not enormous, difference for English education in this country.

One of the things that I have grown increasingly frustrated about over my 4 years here are policy issues that could be easily fixed, and where the answer/solution is obvious, but nothing is done.

[maingman]

PRagic wrotte :

[i]1) Make learning English optional. A second/third language fluency should be mandatory for high school and university graduation, but the language shouldn't have to be English. Kindergarten? Elementary school? Give the kids a break! Let supply and demand have a shot at motivating the students. Of course, this opens up the whole new bag of worms that is 'other languages'. yes
2) Decrease the number of students in foreign language classrooms (15-20 max, fewer when possible). ?? how manny 3-5?
3) Hire qualified, certified teachers only. Non-native speakers will have to pass spoken fluency exams. ok
4) Emphasize speaking in the classroom. Communicative ability should be the goal.
yes ok

[sigmundsmith]

Unfortunately, the Korean education system in general does not allow for appropriate teaching methods. Students are expected to sit in the classroom and listen to the teacher. Their input is limited, regarding asking questions and discussions.

In the public education system this causes difficulties when the students enter the English classroom. Taking the communicative approach requires a great deal of student involvement; interaction with the teacher and fellow students. Studies have shown this to be an affective method for second language acquisition. However, traditional Korean teaching methods does not allow for such an approach.

I am not saying that it is impossible but it is challenging for NSET's.

I have also found this to be similar at university as well. They are required to sit there and just listen to their lectures. Again, limited interaction is expected. Then they enter the English classroom and they expect to be lectured to but language teachers require that they interact.

Where I teach I have a number of students who are Spanish majors. I ask them if their teacher comes from Spain. The answer is no. They have Korean lecturers. Also, classes are predominantly conducted in Korean. So there is very limited scope in practicing the language within the classroom environment.

[Juregen]

[KoreanAmbition]

I say don't even worry about specific teaching methods...their system doesn't "want" English.

I recently had a PhD student, in class, ask me about his daughter and how she can learn to speak English better.

Long story short, I gave a small lecture about how they need to actually SPEAK English in order to learn it. I was very clear that studying TEPS or TOEFL or GRE or studying long hours out of a book are simply not helpful. I went on to explain that westerners learn English because they use it. We didn't read books for hours and then not talk...

His comment...
"But Koreans prefer testing. It makes them study harder. That's how Koreans learn."

I said,
"Yeap, that's why you're all good at reading."


Why don't I ask Michael Jordan some basketball tips, and then after his advice, have the gall to tell him why I do it differently.


Teach Koreans that the concept of "tough" doesn't mean you quit.
Teach Koreans that if something is easy it' won't be overly valuable.
Teach Koreans that you have to be poor at something before you can be good at it.
Teach Koreans that making a mistake speaking English is an opportunity to get better.

Until they learn those concepts, it doesn't matter what teaching techniques you have in place.... the techniques will not create massive change.

It will take a long time for English to succeed here...good luck even leaving a room and them not starting to speak Korean because it's easier.

Time is money here!! Koreans lose time speaking English. Koreans save time speaking Korean.


Before I get attacked...let me say...

I like my students, and I think a lot of them are very talented. However, the situation in Korea is currently not conducive to wide-spread education of this language.

As a teacher here, if you try to solve the bigger picture it's spinning your tires in the mud. Teach the best you can in your own classroom and educate the students the best you can. However, hoping for change across the masses is just not going to happen.

This culture looks at results, not process. Therefore, if people within the system cannot see the results clearly in front of them, then it's very tough to motivate them.

Why do you think so many people come to you moments before a major English-related event and request help? It's because they think English can be "solved" in just a few moments.

In order to succeed in developing English in Korea across the board, you're going to need way more than teaching techniques.




"Even the best coach can't help someone who doesn't want the knowledge."

In this case... the "someone" is Korea.

[son of coco]

It's funny, I was actually coming in here to say 'Koreans focus on the process rather than the results and that's why there's a problem', but the person above me has said the opposite...and I largely agree with what they've said haha

I think the process (i.e how something is done - and there's only one way, theirs) is king here. Just follow the 'correct' steps and don't ruffle any feathers and results (i.e: the kids aren't actually learning how to speak English) are largely ignored.

Seems to be the way generally speaking in society and at school. The social pressure on people here to get married (sometimes after 3-4 months) seems to be all about following the process - something set by parents, people from another generation, flies in the face of a climbing divorce rate. Yet they persist because that's the 'right' way to do it.

Fan death is still believed by some of the population, despite there being no evidence for it occuring and I'm fairly sure results of an autopsy would point to something else being the cause.

A quick look at students improvements in English conversation should be all that's needed to realise something's not working. Learning English like it's maths or science doesn't work. You can't rote learn a language.

Unfortunately people who can't speak English themselves will keep making the rules and I can't see things changing here for a long time.

I spent a year in Japan studying the language in high school and improved markedly over that time. I'd studied it for 4 years beforehand at school. My teacher was very good and we picked up the basics at school. It took the year there though for me to get up to speed with listening and speaking (and then only normal conversation). This idea the hagwons have that you can learn 100 new words a week (obviously because someone has said the more words you know the better it is for your conversation) is ridiculous. I learned 20 new words max when
I was in Japan. The advantage was I could then go outside and hear them being used in normal conversation and practice using them myself. Learning words I've never ever used in my life in the list of 100 a student here has to 'learn' a week is just a waste of time and is focused on getting someone to repeat them once in a test, not learn them and use them in conversation.