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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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 Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: Democracy in Israel |
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Anyone keeping up on the latest from Israel?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/12/what-if-israel-ceases-to-be-a-democracy/68582/
This article stunned me. I knew the demographics of Israel had changed, but not to that extent. I have read the Atlantic for years and thought they were pretty pro-Israel. I can't see this moving in a positive direction.
These new demographics and the relative decline of Israeli military capability (last Lebanese incursion ended pretty badly) are troubling signs. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| As I wrote last week, there's very little Israel's right-wing government has done in the past year or so to suggest that it is willing to wean itself from its addiction to West Bank settlements, and the expansion of settlements bodes ill for the creation of a Palestinian state -- and the absence of Palestinian statehood means that Israel will one day soon confront this crucial question concerning its democratic nature: Will it grant West Bank Arabs the right to vote, or will it deny them the vote? If it grants them the vote, this will be the end of Israel as a Jewish state; if it denies them the vote in perpetuity, it will cease to be a democratic state. |
This isn't exactly true. An Israel where only Jewish citizens could vote would still be democratic in nature, since it would still use democratic means to elect representatives. Said system simply wouldn't be all inclusive. Many states which utilize democratic methods of either electing governments or making decisions in history have limited who can vote. What this author is actually demonstrating is how much emotional baggage many people have unreasonably hung up on the concept of democratic voting.
Mind you, I'm not saying they should deny these people the right to vote. If they are going to include them in their national territory, then the should include them as full citizens in my opinion. I also think Israel can maintain it's Jewish character while still including non-Jews. Doing so in perpetuity will require Jews keeping their breeding rate up, though. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| This isn't exactly true. An Israel where only Jewish citizens could vote would still be democratic in nature, since it would still use democratic means to elect representatives. Said system simply wouldn't be all inclusive. |
Democratic the way apartheid South Africa or the American Confederacy were democratic. Which states allow only certain people to vote on the basis of ethnicity or religion? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Democratic the way apartheid South Africa or the American Confederacy were democratic. |
Not just the American Confederacy, northway. America for quite a long time didn't allow either blacks or women to vote. That doesn't change the fact that its government had a democratic element to it.
| northway wrote: |
| Which states allow only certain people to vote on the basis of ethnicity or religion? |
I'll give you some examples of nations which, although they allowed democratic election of representatives, restricted who could vote at some time or another. The criteria for being denied the vote included factors like ethnicity, religion, gender, ownership of property, and even literacy.
-America (and not just the Confederacy, either).
-Britain.
-Japan.
-Iran.
-Indonesia.
-Denmark.
-Belgium.
-France.
-Germany.
-Portugal.
-Spain.
-Switzerland.
The list goes on, and I'm not going to keep typing it out. History is filled with nations that utilized democratic voting methods for either decision making or election of representatives but didn't always afford the vote to all the adult denizens of the nation. I'm not here to support those nations, but I do think it's clear that being a "democratic nation" doesn't mandate all adults are able to vote. Democracy does not demand universal suffrage; it's ultimately just a method of decision making, not an ethos of some sort. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Most of the countries you're citing deny voting rights to immigrants or immigrants' children, not people who just happened to be caught up in the creation of the nation by an outside force. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Most of the countries you're citing deny voting rights to immigrants or immigrants' children, not people who just happened to be caught up in the creation of the nation by an outside force. |
Every single country on this list denied the vote to over 50% of their native born adult populations for a substantial portion of their "democratized" history, Northway. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Most of the countries you're citing deny voting rights to immigrants or immigrants' children, not people who just happened to be caught up in the creation of the nation by an outside force. |
Every single country on this list denied the vote to over 50% of their native born adult populations for a substantial portion of their "democratized" history, Northway. |
Okay: is that right now? I'm well aware of the history of democracy (or lack thereof) in those countries, but that's irrelevant to right now. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| Most of the countries you're citing deny voting rights to immigrants or immigrants' children, not people who just happened to be caught up in the creation of the nation by an outside force. |
Every single country on this list denied the vote to over 50% of their native born adult populations for a substantial portion of their "democratized" history, Northway. |
Okay: is that right now? I'm well aware of the history of democracy (or lack thereof) in those countries, but that's irrelevant to right now. |
Given all I'm trying to establish is that Israel doesn't require absolutely universal suffrage in order to be a "democratic nation," I don't see any reason to impose arbitrary time restrictions on the cases I bring up as examples. Plenty of democratic nations have lacked universal suffrage. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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@Fox
I think the difference in Israel's case is that its going backwards rather than forwards in regards to voting. Typicaly A country starts with a republic where an elite is enfranchised, and they slowly extend those rights to everyone. What is happening now seems to be the opposite. Israel after its initial wars, did give the Arabs citizenship. If it were not to repeat this I would think it to be backsliding.
Also the wieght of the rabbinical edicts to not sell land to arabs or date them was a bit scary. Although its always been Jewish, theocratic elements have never held this much power before. I think we should always be suspicious when religion mixes with gov. (unless its Huckabee, then its just entertaining) |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
@Fox
I think the difference in Israel's case is that its going backwards rather than forwards in regards to voting. |
I think we can condemn that without making up strange definitions of "democratic state" in an attempt to exclude a clearly democratic state from being described as such. Anyone familiar with my position on Israel knows I think Palestinians should become full participants in it.
| stilicho25 wrote: |
| Also the wieght of the rabbinical edicts to not sell land to arabs or date them was a bit scary. |
I don't like this either. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The use of "democracy" is the problem. Republic is a better word for the systems we use. I think the real point of the article is that despite its critics, Israel has traditionally been good at enfranchising its population, and now its come to a crossroads where that might no longer be the case. |
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morrisonhotel
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Location: Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| stilicho25 wrote: |
| The use of "democracy" is the problem. Republic is a better word for the systems we use. |
This, though I'm not convinced 'republic' is the right word either...... |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| At this point I feel like we're arguing semantics. My issue is when pundits label Israel the only democracy in the Middle East and use that as a justification for unquestioned US support. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm, I don't really want to support Israel however democratic it's government. We should really be focusing our money and attention at the domestic problems, IMHO.
As far as the article goes, I think it is saying that Israel is backsliding on it's democratic principles. If we go any further with the argument on what is or isn't a democracy, we run into problems. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| At this point I feel like we're arguing semantics. |
That's all that I was ever arguing: that his usage of a particular term was completely wrong.
| northway wrote: |
| My issue is when pundits label Israel the only democracy in the Middle East and use that as a justification for unquestioned US support. |
That's understandable. |
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