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MA_TESOL
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: Rude emails from students over grade |
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I got a really rude email from a student. He got a C and wrote: Pardon me and continued on with some rather rude rhetoric demanding that I check the grade again. We grade on a curve and the low 30 percenters must have lower than a B. He fell into that category, but does not seem to accept it and seems to be throwing the ball in my court rather than looking at himself. No matter how often I explain the curve some students just don't get it
I hate the curve when many students do well and I have to lower the grdes, but that is life |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Just send a VERY polite email (you know, the pompous type) telling him you're surprised he can't understand the clear English you've used to explain the situation.
Finish it up with something like he is not a school student anymore and you recommend he start taking responsibility for his own study ethic. Wish him the best of luck at carrying out his New Year resolution. |
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RedKristin
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Could you show him what the A-worthy answers look like? I've done this with students AND parents who bug me after exam time and it seems to work.
I wonder if the student realizes that rudeness won't get his problems resolved any faster. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Rude emails from students over grade |
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| MA_TESOL wrote: |
| I hate the curve when many students do well and I have to lower the grdes, but that is life |
You use a curve that forces grades down? Why?
I'm surprised a rude email is the worst you received. |
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jonbowman88
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Location: gwangju, s korea
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah man curves are suppose to curve your grade up. I don't think I can understand this either. Who ever heard of curving someone's grade down, it's laughable. I'd be pissed out of my mind as well. |
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Adios_Corea
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Rude emails from students over grade |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| MA_TESOL wrote: |
| I hate the curve when many students do well and I have to lower the grdes, but that is life |
You use a curve that forces grades down? Why?
I'm surprised a rude email is the worst you received. |
What are you talking about? Do you have any idea how grading on a curve works? Clearly not.
The parameters for a curve change depending on how severely one wants to follow the curve, but traditionally the top 7% or so would get A's, the bottom 7% or so would get F's, next top 20% B's, next lowest 20% D's, and then the rest would get a C, which would work out to half of the class...hence the idea that a C is not a bad score, but is in fact, the average.
Over the years we have deviated from this very strict Bell Curve as we become more and more PC about hurting students' feelings. (This phenomenon has been especially implemented in Korea, where a C is considered an F)....so nowadays, especially in university English courses, there are 3 grades...A,B, and C....and the university will give you an approximate % for how many of each grade they'd like. So....if we look at the following two sets of % scores we can see that grading on a curve can either mean that you are "grading up" or "grading down".
Say the school wants 20% A, 50% B, 30% C
Set 1: 65, 68, 72, 77, 78, 81, 84, 88, 89, 89
In this case, both the 89's would be given A's (and perhaps the 88 depending on how strictly the curve is followed), the 65, 68, and 72 would be given C's, and the rest are B's....so here we are grading up.
Set 2: 82, 82, 84, 86, 88, 92, 95, 98, 100, 100
In this class, the two 100's now become A's (again, perhaps the 98 as well), the 82's and the 84 are C's, and the rest B's.
This is how a REAL curve works....perhaps you are referring to a fake curve, which is simply adding 5 points to everyone's score. This is NOT grading on a curve, it is simply giving 5 points to everyone's score because the test is hard. |
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Adios_Corea
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jonbowman88 wrote: |
| Yeah man curves are suppose to curve your grade up. I don't think I can understand this either. Who ever heard of curving someone's grade down, it's laughable. I'd be pissed out of my mind as well. |
Again...then you don't understand how a curve works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grading_on_a_curve |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Rude emails from students over grade |
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| Adios_Corea wrote: |
| What are you talking about? Do you have any idea how grading on a curve works? Clearly not. |
Are you trained in any teaching methodologies? Have you studied any motivational theory? Curves should only ever be applied in a manner that can help students. The likely outcome of using a curve that devalues earned grades is a group of students who see the grading as intrinsically unfair and who, as a result of this, no longer care as much about trying to succeed in your classroom.
From your own link: [W]hile the idea of a curve being used to determine individual performance is sought, it's interrupted by community performance.
Some professors compensate for this by assigning the student two grades, one based on a curve and another based on the traditional 90%=A, 80%=B, 70%=C and will award the student the higher of the two grades.
'Simply adding 5 points to everyone's score' has nothing to do with it. |
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gava01
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I was in a class where everyone started with a C. You needed to be 1 std. dev above the mean to get a B and so on. I was at 93% in this law class at UIUC and got a B. Many students had 89% and got C's.
I'm still pissed |
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jonpurdy
Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Location: Ulsan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Rude emails from students over grade |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
Are you trained in any teaching methodologies? Have you studied any motivational theory? Curves should only ever be applied in a manner that can help students. The likely outcome of using a curve that devalues earned grades is a group of students who see the grading as intrinsically unfair and who, as a result of this, no longer care as much about trying to succeed in your classroom.
From your own link: [W]hile the idea of a curve being used to determine individual performance is sought, it's interrupted by community performance. |
Yeah, doing a true curve and bumping students grades down to prevent grade inflation sounds good from a university administrative point of view. However, I'd be pretty pissed if I earned a B and got bumped down to a C.
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Some professors compensate for this by assigning the student two grades, one based on a curve and another based on the traditional 90%=A, 80%=B, 70%=C and will award the student the higher of the two grades. |
Grade inflation be damned, that sounds like a good idea. If there is a high proportion of A students this year, just make the material harder for next year. Far better idea than knocking students down a grade point. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| You guys obviously didn't go through engineering in the 90's. Many schools purposely 'weeded' out 25% of 1st year students. |
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Adios_Corea
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Whether you agree or disagree with the implementation of a curve, this doesn't change the fact of what a curve is.
I never said that a curve was a good idea, although as I student I did prefer classes that were graded on a proper curve (personally I loved classes that were graded on a curve when I was in school because I was smarter than most people and could pull off an A- by doing not much more than coming to lectures and understanding the basic concepts of the course), I simply said that you clearly don't understand how a curve works if you are so shocked that a student's grade might be lowered due to the curve.
There are more reasons to implement a curve than just grade inflation. The idea of a curve is that a course is a competition between students, that you are competing for grades against other students and not necessarily against a book or course material.
While some students might be pissed that they scored 82% but were given a C, I'd be equally pissed if I scored 100% in a course, but everyone in the class got the same grade as me because the lowest grade was 90%....so it works both ways.
Concerning the comment directed towards my teaching methodologies....I do not believe that it is the job of a university lecturer to motivate my students. University students should be able to motivate themselves. |
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MA_TESOL
Joined: 11 Nov 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| The University requires the curve. 30 percent can get an A/ 30 percent must get a C or lower. The computer will not accept the grades if you do not do it this way. Also, I teach English majors and they do not determine their levels when placing them in the class. Most of my classes are high level, near fluent speakers of English |
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Morticae
Joined: 06 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I once had a university class where they curved down.
I hated it, and the students have a right to complain about it.
My A was turned into a B. I did the work for the A, but I did not receive it. The grade was stolen from me, I am still bitter about it.
USUALLY a curve is only applied to lift students up. That was the first, and only time in my academic career that a curve was applied to bring students down. Believe me, that teacher was NOT well liked after that.
I regret spending many hours writing papers and studying, it was a waste of my time.
Ah, yes. When you have bullshit policies like curving students down, you should expect some nasty emails. I know it may not be your fault, not your policies, but you're the face of the grade. You must take it, understand their frustration, but do not fuel it. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Adios_Corea wrote: |
| I simply said that you clearly don't understand how a curve works if you are so shocked that a student's grade might be lowered due to the curve. |
Again, no. I understand how a curve works, just as I understand that implementing a strict bell curve is an archaic method for precisely the reasons I already mentioned. You, however, don't seem to understand that there are different methods of curve-grading, each with their own advantages and disadvantages. The traditional, strict curve, for instance, is only beneficial to those seeking to foster a sense of elitism by eschewing personal performance in favor of community performance; it has no educational benefits whatsoever.
| Quote: |
| While some students might be pissed that they scored 82% but were given a C, I'd be equally pissed if I scored 100% in a course, but everyone in the class got the same grade as me because the lowest grade was 90%....so it works both ways. |
No curve works like that. If you received 100% and other students' grades were inflated up to 100%, then your score should be adjusted above 100%. To leave yours alone would be 'simply adding points to everyone's score,' which, as you rightly said, is not a curve.
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| Concerning the comment directed towards my teaching methodologies....I do not believe that it is the job of a university lecturer to motivate my students. University students should be able to motivate themselves. |
University lecturers don't need to motivate students? A university employee whose sole duty it is to teach? Undergrads may be held to much higher standards than highschoolers, but they're still students. Nothing about their status suggests abandoning all educational theory.
| MA_TESOL wrote: |
| The University requires the curve. |
Ah, that makes sense then. |
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