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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility.
First and foremost is not assuming that Western=Civilized. That nonsense needs to stop.
I agree with these classes, but I object to the tone. Needs to be more cross-cultural and not so Western-centric. African, Slavic, Indian, Islamic and Latin sensibilities should be incorporated. |
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Globutron
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder if this is a result of the obama meetup, how China said they will try to incorporate more human rights and so forth from now on... |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility.
First and foremost is not assuming that Western=Civilized. That nonsense needs to stop.
I agree with these classes, but I object to the tone. Needs to be more cross-cultural and not so Western-centric. African, Slavic, Indian, Islamic and Latin sensibilities should be incorporated. |
If a western person fails to use Korean manners: pouring drinks with the wrong hand, handing things over with only one hand, not using the honorific case when adressing a superior, blowing your nose; there is no real damage to the person you slighted. Now if a Korean is rude to me by western standards, I get bumped and shoved, I get saliva on my shoes, I get doors slammed in my face, and I have to wait longer in line- that's real damage. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility.
First and foremost is not assuming that Western=Civilized. That nonsense needs to stop.
I agree with these classes, but I object to the tone. Needs to be more cross-cultural and not so Western-centric. African, Slavic, Indian, Islamic and Latin sensibilities should be incorporated. |
If a western person fails to use Korean manners: pouring drinks with the wrong hand, handing things over with only one hand, not using the honorific case when adressing a superior, blowing your nose; there is no real damage to the person you slighted. Now if a Korean is rude to me by western standards, I get bumped and shoved, I get saliva on my shoes, I get doors slammed in my face, and I have to wait longer in line- that's real damage. |
That's an awfully myopic view of Korean manners. You fail to see any value whatsoever in cross-cultural exchange going the other way? Treatment of guests, for example? Respect for elders? Nothing at all?
Not to mention that if they're teaching table manners, foreigners' table manners in Korea can be really freaking rude. Sticking your chopsticks in your bowl of rice, for example, or using them as a stabbing tool?
Last edited by northway on Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility.
First and foremost is not assuming that Western=Civilized. That nonsense needs to stop.
I agree with these classes, but I object to the tone. Needs to be more cross-cultural and not so Western-centric. African, Slavic, Indian, Islamic and Latin sensibilities should be incorporated. |
If a western person fails to use Korean manners: pouring drinks with the wrong hand, handing things over with only one hand, not using the honorific case when adressing a superior, blowing your nose; there is no real damage to the person you slighted. Now if a Korean is rude to me by western standards, I get bumped and shoved, I get saliva on my shoes, I get doors slammed in my face, and I have to wait longer in line- that's real damage. |
Now that is just caricature...Westerners can be rude in ways that "damage" me as well.
From the harassment of people based on how they dress (talking back home), westerners spit as well, to the ones that take a slight bump by an ajumma as an excuse to stick out both bows and bulldoze, to the behavior of drunks (puking in fish tanks), and making me have to wait in line because they're screaming that no one speaks English, yeah, we do it too.
Koreans can be plenty rude without actually damaging- from Kimchi smokebreathed ajosshi all up in my grill, to the sweet chorus of smacking and slurping, etc. etc.
And Koreans can damage in even more ways, lest we forget driving and lewd taxi driver behavior.
But its not all one or the other. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility.
First and foremost is not assuming that Western=Civilized. That nonsense needs to stop.
I agree with these classes, but I object to the tone. Needs to be more cross-cultural and not so Western-centric. African, Slavic, Indian, Islamic and Latin sensibilities should be incorporated. |
If a western person fails to use Korean manners: pouring drinks with the wrong hand, handing things over with only one hand, not using the honorific case when adressing a superior, blowing your nose; there is no real damage to the person you slighted. Now if a Korean is rude to me by western standards, I get bumped and shoved, I get saliva on my shoes, I get doors slammed in my face, and I have to wait longer in line- that's real damage. |
That's an awfully myopic view of Korean manners. You fail to see any value whatsoever in cross-cultural exchange going the other way? Treatment of guests, for example? Respect for elders? Nothing at all?
Not to mention that if they're teaching table manners, foreigners' table manners in Korea can be really freaking rude. Sticking your chopsticks in your bowl of rice, for example, or using them as a stabbing tool? |
I don't know how Koreans get this notion that foreigners don't respect elders. I was brought up to give up my seat to old people and generally show respect, as were my peers.
Im sorry but, no, sticking your chopsticks upright in a bowl does not equate to being physically assualted on the subways and streets or being cut in front of in line. ( As if many westerners put their chopsticks upright anyhow.) |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I hope there is a reciprocal course in Eastern manners being promoted to American students.
Things like raise your hand to ask a question. Wait your turn before speaking. Cell Phone manners. At least act like a 6 year old when its 11PM on a Friday night. How to address people politely and proper body language. Respect towards age. Humility.
First and foremost is not assuming that Western=Civilized. That nonsense needs to stop.
I agree with these classes, but I object to the tone. Needs to be more cross-cultural and not so Western-centric. African, Slavic, Indian, Islamic and Latin sensibilities should be incorporated. |
If a western person fails to use Korean manners: pouring drinks with the wrong hand, handing things over with only one hand, not using the honorific case when adressing a superior, blowing your nose; there is no real damage to the person you slighted. Now if a Korean is rude to me by western standards, I get bumped and shoved, I get saliva on my shoes, I get doors slammed in my face, and I have to wait longer in line- that's real damage. |
Now that is just caricature...Westerners can be rude in ways that "damage" me as well.
From the harassment of people based on how they dress (talking back home), westerners spit as well, to the ones that take a slight bump by an ajumma as an excuse to stick out both bows and bulldoze, to the behavior of drunks (puking in fish tanks), and making me have to wait in line because they're screaming that no one speaks English, yeah, we do it too.
Koreans can be plenty rude without actually damaging- from Kimchi smokebreathed ajosshi all up in my grill, to the sweet chorus of smacking and slurping, etc. etc.
And Koreans can damage in even more ways, lest we forget driving and lewd taxi driver behavior.
But its not all one or the other. |
Come on. Puking in fish tanks is not common western behavior. Pushing and cutting in line are common Korean behavior. About spitting. Try spitting on the pavement in front of a cop back home and see what happens. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
I don't know how Koreans get this notion that foreigners don't respect elders. I was brought up to give up my seat to old people and generally show respect, as were my peers.
Im sorry but, no, sticking your chopsticks upright in a bowl does not equate to being physically assualted on the subways and streets or being cut in front of in line. ( As if many westerners put their chopsticks upright anyhow.) |
I'm not Korean (I'm white), but honestly, I don't see nearly as many Western families taking in their elderly relatives. Moreover, it's remarkably common for Western kids to act like punks to their parents. Korean kids? Much less common.
And being pushed around in a busy subway is hardly being physically assaulted, please. In any case, my point was that if you think it's a good thing to be teaching Chinese kids Western manners, it wouldn't be a bad thing to do the same the other way as well. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Try spitting on the pavement in front of a cop back home and see what happens. |
Are you from Singapore or something? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Try spitting on the pavement in front of a cop back home and see what happens. |
Are you from Singapore or something? I've done a hell of a lot worse than that in front of cops without them batting an eye. Then again, most of that was in Montreal. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
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My doctor told me not to take the subway for at least a month, because of a recent surgery. He said that if I get pushed, it could cause damage. Is that proof enough that it's dangerous? Frail shouldn't be allowed to take public transit?
I've never seen westerners (or anyone) vomit into fish tanks. I have, however, seen suits passed out in their own vomit on the street on a fairly regular basis. Super polite.
I always gave up my seat to the elderly, pregnant, moms with young kids, the sick, or the impaired. As for Korean kids not acting like punks, that's been changing a lot. Western families also put their elderly relatives into nursing homes. We have social security that pays for it. There's cardboard collection here as a safety net, of course  |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
I don't know how Koreans get this notion that foreigners don't respect elders. I was brought up to give up my seat to old people and generally show respect, as were my peers.
Im sorry but, no, sticking your chopsticks upright in a bowl does not equate to being physically assualted on the subways and streets or being cut in front of in line. ( As if many westerners put their chopsticks upright anyhow.) |
I'm not Korean (I'm white), but honestly, I don't see nearly as many Western families taking in their elderly relatives. Moreover, it's remarkably common for Western kids to act like punks to their parents. Korean kids? Much less common.
And being pushed around in a busy subway is hardly being physically assaulted, please. In any case, my point was that if you think it's a good thing to be teaching Chinese kids Western manners, it wouldn't be a bad thing to do the same the other way as well. |
Taking in elderly parents is not a respect thing, its a choice thing. I don't see as many 30 somethings living with their parents in the west either. Many elderly western people do not want to live with their kids. Are you saying that western grandparents want to live with their families but are flat out being denied en masse. Talk about respect for elders, I dont see many old people having to pick up cardboard in order to survive in western countries as I do in Korea. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
Come on. Puking in fish tanks is not common western behavior. Pushing and cutting in line are common Korean behavior. About spitting. Try spitting on the pavement in front of a cop back home and see what happens. |
Just mentioning something that was written on this forum about Boryeong. I should say that the person who posted that story also mentioned that the Korean restaurant owners took it in stride.
I'll agree that most of the behaviors I listed are not typical if you'll agree that using terms like "harmed" and "assaulted" to describe the standard jostling, line cutting, and spitting is over the top as well.
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| Is that proof enough that it's dangerous? Frail shouldn't be allowed to take public transit? |
I think even the most orderly crowd on the Green line would have trouble given how densely packed people are, just sheer overcrowding, but I get your point. At least on the bus one should be able to get on and off without being thrown to the curb, which can happen in Seoul.
| Quote: |
| Talk about respect for elders, I dont see many old people having to pick up cardboard in order to survive in western countries as I do in Korea. |
Not all of them do it to survive. Some of them do it to keep busy. I've mentioned this before, its a generation that has it ingrained in them that if they aren't doing something, they're doing nothing.
The examples I listed are just to "throw out" some extremes that one might consider if one were to look at the other side.
No one here has yet disagreed that back home if you wear pink and carry a murse that you are liable to be harassed, nor the antics that tend to occur on campus on a Friday night. Seems about comparable to the drunken ajosshis spitting, vomiting, and leering.
I'm all for etiquette class, but in a cross-cultural context, not a culturally-imperialist one.
To re-emphasize, I find the lack of attention that said course pays to say, Islamic standards, questionable. I'd also say that the fact that the Chinese are willing to teach such classes, but there is a dearth of said classes in say, the States, a sign of politeness by one side and "rudeness" by the other.
Would we be okay if all school children in America had to go through a class explaining Chinese customs of politeness? Wouldn't we be a bit resentful? Especially if they labeled it a class in acting civilized? Would we be cheering its development?
Along with politeness comes class and respect. They are fundamental to the other. |
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Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Globutron wrote: |
| I wonder if this is a result of the obama meetup, how China said they will try to incorporate more human rights and so forth from now on... |
I think its the evolution of a country... Japan did this 100 years ago, Russia did it even earlier, they adapted themself to modified westernized manners, in order to imporve the country's image.
So now it's China's turn.
I am quite happy to see this happening. |
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