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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: grammar question hope/would |
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I have a few questions about the following sentence that I hope someone can help with.
I would send gifts to her, hoping she would fall in love with me.
1) Is it grammatically OK to use "would" after "hope" in the underlined part?
2) Does the sentence convey the meaning of what the writer
frequently did in the past? (i.e. I used to send gifts to her ~)
3) If I wanted to use the same idea as a reply to a "What would
you do...." kind of question, could I use:(?)
I would send gifts to her, and hope that she would fall in love with me.
And again in this sentence, is it OK to use "would" after "hope"?
Thanks a LOT for any help provided with these. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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You are mixing up two different uses of the word "would". The more difficult one I think is apparently called "PAST PERSPECTIVE � WOULD" http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/modal2a.html
I also get a sense of a repeated act, like present tense.
"I walk to school."
"When I was a kid, I would walk to school."
Perhaps, it is redundant and not needed ("I sent gifts to her, hoping she would fall in love with me.)
Is that the same as past perspective? In their example sentences "would" is used after and refer to one instance.
"I expected that I would impress the judges."
For the future use of "would", this is more for events that are less likely to take place. The word "wish" and "hope" are often compared to each other, where "wish" refers more to something that definitely won't happen ("I wish it would stop raining."), and "hope" refers to something that is more possible ("I hope I win this lotto.") They bought the ticket, maybe they will win. ("I wish I bought a lotto ticket.") They didn't buy a ticket, they won't win at all. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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You are mixing up two different uses of the word "would". The more difficult one I think is apparently called "PAST PERSPECTIVE � WOULD" http://www.grammar-quizzes.com/modal2a.html
I also get a sense of a repeated act, like present tense.
"I walk to school."
"When I was a kid, I would walk to school." |
Agreed. Would can be used in the same way as 'used to' to talk about repeated actions in the past. The second use of would is different and I'd say it was the past of hope + will
e.g. I hope I will pass the exam - present
I hoped I would pass the exam - past
I hope she will fall in love with me
I hoped she would fall in love with me.
You can say ' I hope she falls in love with me' but 'I hoped she fell in love with me' sounds wrong to me
Not sure I totally agree with the way you explained 'wish' and 'hope'. I'd say as a general rule wish refers to past or present events and hope is used to talk about the future.
e.g. I wish I was taller (present)
I wish I hadn't drunk so much last night (past)
I hope I (will) pass the exam
The exception is the 'wish + would structure which can be said to be used to talk about a future event e.g. 'I wish it would stop raining' but that could also be said to be complaining aboout a present situation. It's often used to complain about habits, 'I wish you wouldn't eat so loudly'
One thing that differentiates 'wish and hope is that we can't use wish to talk about our future plans/dreams in the way non native speakers often do
e.g. I wish I get a job with Samsung.
It's also interesting to note that in this sentence
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| They bought the ticket, maybe they will win. ("I wish I bought a lotto ticket.") |
You are using the simple past with wish to talk about a past event. Most grammar books would say the correct use is wish + past perfect as in
'I wish I had bought a lotto ticket',
though I have noticed that with certain types of English (Irsih and American, for example) this structure of wish + simple past to talk about a past even is fairly common. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Most grammar books would say the correct use is wish + past perfect as in |
A big obstacle for students and teachers using grammar books is that they tend to isolate sentences out of context and only analyze rules one sentence at a time. This is fine for starting out using a grammatical pattern, but if you read a passage, you will see that these rules are left behind for the sake of efficiency.
| Quote: |
One thing that differentiates 'wish and hope is that we can't use wish to talk about our future plans/dreams in the way non native speakers often do
e.g. I wish I get a job with Samsung. |
This might be an example of what I meant by context. The sentence alone could be analyzed wrong, but in context Asian languages sometimes allow for a different tense than what we might expect. Another example of this is using past tense like "I knew/understood" instead of "I know/understand (now)".
Anyway, this just muddies the water.
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| Not sure I totally agree with the way you explained 'wish' and 'hope'. |
When you hope(?) upon a star, it makes no difference who you are. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies.
I'd like to go back to my original questions and make sure I'm following you.
1) Yes, that structure is correct.
2) Yes, that sentence has the meaning of "used to".
3) I'm still a bit confused on this one. If someone asked the hypothetical question, "What would you do to make her fall in love with you?"
Would it be grammatically correct to reply with:
I would send gifts to her, and hope that she would fall in love with me.
OR
I would send gifts to her, hoping she would fall in love with me. (?)
The second option does sound like "used to" but to me it sounds OK when followed directly by the question "What would you do~?". So I'm still confused.
Sorry, but I had a bad day on Friday and I need to be walked through this in baby steps.
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| I would send gifts to her, and hope that she would fall in love with me. |
"I would send gifts to her and hope that she would fall in love with me."
I don't think you need a comma (side issue). The first "would" is the repeated act, the second "would" sounds to me like emphasis. You could also say "hope that she fell in love". There are rules about reported speech (I never liked) so maybe this becomes an issue if you have to follow those rules.
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| I would send gifts to her, hoping she would fall in love with me. |
I interpret that as essentially the same thing, but maybe a little stronger if you want to get technical about it.
"I hope you make the playoffs." (one time thing, not that crucial, if you don't maybe next year)
"We are hoping you lay down the gun." (yikes, this is urgent, lay down that gun please) |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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In your first post you didn't make it entirely clear that the sentence was a response to the hypothetical question, 'what would you do to make her fall in love with you? Without that context we assumed 'I would send her gifts, was the past habit form of would. Knowing the context 'I would send her gifts, ' is the hypothetical would used to describe unreal situations as is the second 'would' after hope. Thus the gifts could refer to one situation when the speaker sends a selection of presents or a repeated action. Both could be possible.
In answer to your most recent question (part 3) both sentences are ok |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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A big obstacle for students and teachers using grammar books is that they tend to isolate sentences out of context and only analyze rules one sentence at a time. This is fine for starting out using a grammatical pattern, but if you read a passage, you will see that these rules are left behind for the sake of efficiency.
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Not sure what you mean here. Most grammar books I know explain the meaning of a structure in a certain context and then give an example sentence of the structure in the context just described. There wouldn't be much point in talking about the meaning of grammar without a context would there? |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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A big obstacle for students and teachers using grammar books is that they tend to isolate sentences out of context and only analyze rules one sentence at a time. This is fine for starting out using a grammatical pattern, but if you read a passage, you will see that these rules are left behind for the sake of efficiency.
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Not sure what you mean here. Most grammar books I know explain the meaning of a structure in a certain context and then give an example sentence of the structure in the context just described. There wouldn't be much point in talking about the meaning of grammar without a context would there? |
Maybe you overlooked the example you gave.
"explain the meaning of a structure in a certain context and then give an example"
That's what I meant. They don't give the sentences in a realistic fashion. One rule after the other (to me, that is out of context). If you read a story or even a news article without being told beforehand, you would have to determine the context without being told. This is what I meant by in context. You have to pick the grammar rule that applies in context without being coached beforehand. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah sure I'm all for students 'discovering' grammar rules themselves in proper contexts but grammar books are useful references for teachers and students when they want a quick guide. I wouldn't describe them as obstacles |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| raewon wrote: |
Thanks for the replies.
I'd like to go back to my original questions and make sure I'm following you.
1) Yes, that structure is correct.
2) Yes, that sentence has the meaning of "used to".
3) I'm still a bit confused on this one. If someone asked the hypothetical question, "What would you do to make her fall in love with you?"
Would it be grammatically correct to reply with:
I would send gifts to her, and hope that she would fall in love with me.
OR
I would send gifts to her, hoping she would fall in love with me. (?)
The second option does sound like "used to" but to me it sounds OK when followed directly by the question "What would you do~?". So I'm still confused.
Sorry, but I had a bad day on Friday and I need to be walked through this in baby steps.
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Hello Raewon,
Sorry to hear about your bad day on Friday...hope the weekend was good for you.
Both of your answers are correct...both descriptively and prescriptively.
In essence they are saying the same thing.
They are simply different grammatical structures saying the same thing.
'I would send gifts to her, and hope that she would fall in love with me.'
Comma is not necessary, as has been mentioned.
The reason the comma is optional is that the 2nd independent clause has been reduced to a phrase....from....
'I would send gifts to her, and I would hope that she would fall in love with me.'
(Compound Complex sentence...Independent, Independent +Dependent Clause.)
As the "I would" (subject +aux)in the second clause is repetitive...it has been ellipted...thus reducing the second independent clausal structure into a phrase...the dependent clause remains intact. But in Complex sentence structures, a comma is most often not required when the formula is IC DC.
In your second sentence the second clause has been reduced to an absolute clausal construction...participial phrase with dependent clause, and is set off with a comma.
'I would send gifts to her, hoping (that) she would fall in love with me.
Again, both sentences are good and do what you are suggesting.
Hope this is useful.
Keep smiling.  |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:56 am Post subject: |
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Thanks to everyone for all of the great replies - they were very helpful.
Through answers I receive here, sometimes I end up feeling that my
questions were more complicated than I understood them to be. I hope
that's not a bad thing.
Anyway, thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I think it's important that the people who do take the time to reply know that I have indeed
read through the responses and appreciate them.
I hope everyone starts their week off on the right foot tomorrow. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah sure I'm all for students 'discovering' grammar rules themselves in proper contexts but grammar books are useful references for teachers and students when they want a quick guide. I wouldn't describe them as obstacles |
I see them as obstacles. Take Side by Side books for example. I like using them, but students often get trapped and boxed in only using the book (Let's Go for the younger students). This is similar to a musician only playing scales and chords. Unless you get out of the drills and see what you are learning in context, then you won't make conversation of your own. You have to learn to use them outside of the drills. That's why discovering is so important.
I have heard so many people in high positions that speak English as a second language, but when they talk to me I can tell they are just saying a bunch of sentences they memorized. They don't know the context. Simple example, "It's nice to meet you." Beginner students always say this, even months into the school year. Other students who don't seem as proficient might actually be more because they are working out sentences on their own within the context of a situation.
It sure is an obstacle for me as a teacher and learner of Asian languages. |
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