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What Do You Think: State Funded Physics Research

 
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: What Do You Think: State Funded Physics Research Reply with quote

Article here.

Quote:
What happens to a dark energy dream deferred?

An ambitious $1.6 billion spacecraft that would investigate the mysterious force that is apparently accelerating the expansion of the universe � and search out planets around other stars, to boot � might have to be postponed for a decade, NASA says, because of cost overruns and mismanagement on a separate project, the James Webb Space Telescope. The news has dismayed many American astronomers, who worry they will wind up playing second fiddle to their European counterparts in what they say is the deepest mystery in the universe.

�How many things can we do in our lifetime that will excite a generation of scientists?� asked Saul Perlmutter, an astronomer at the University of California, Berkeley, who is one of dark energy�s discoverers. There is a sense, he said, �that we�re starting to give up leadership in these important areas in fundamental physics.�

Last summer, after 10 years of debate and interagency wrangling, a prestigious committee from the National Academy of Sciences gave highest priority among big space projects in the coming decade to a satellite telescope that would take precise measure of dark energy, as it is known, and also look for planets beyond our solar system. The proposed project goes by the slightly unwieldy acronym Wfirst, for Wide-Field Infrared Survey Telescope.

The Academy�s report was ambushed by NASA�s announcement in November that the successor to the Hubble, the James Webb Space Telescope, which had been scheduled for a 2014 launching, would require at least another $1.6 billion and several more years to finish, pushing the next big mission to 2022 at the very earliest. The Webb will search out the first stars and galaxies to have formed in the universe, but is not designed for dark energy.

To take up the slack until 2025 � or whenever the American mission can finally fly � the space agency has proposed buying a 20 percent share in a European dark-energy mission known as Euclid that could fly as soon as 2018. In return, NASA would ask for a similar investment by Europe in Wfirst.

But, said Dr. Perlmutter, �most of us think it is hard to imagine if we do Euclid now that we will do a dark-energy mission then.�

Alan P. Boss of the Carnegie Institution for Science, who heads a committee that advises NASA on astrophysics, said: �If Euclid goes ahead, they�re going to own the field. There�s no way the U.S. can stop them.�

Last month, the American astronomers� worries about falling behind seemed to be validated by a second Academy panel convened to consider the Euclid option. The panelists pointed out that part of the reason that Wfirst had been given such high priority was that it could be launched sooner rather than later. The panel urged NASA to stay the course or to explore merging Wfirst and Euclid in a joint operation.

Everybody agrees that nothing is cast in stone yet. Euclid must survive a bake-off with two other projects before it is approved by the European Space Agency, or E.S.A. Not until then, European astronomers say, will they be able to talk about changes to the project.

NASA has not said how it plans to get the $1.6 billion it needs to finish the Webb telescope, and thus how much will be left for other projects this decade. Some of the answers will be in the 2012 NASA budget due next month. �Fitting the E.S.A. and NASA processes together at this stage would be a challenge, but the scientific benefits are clear,� according to the new report by the Academy, which was delivered in December.

...


How important do you think projects like these are to our nation? Are they worth the money spent? If they are worth the money, how should they measure up against other spending priorities in general, and especially against research with potentially more immediate or practical gain (such as in the biological sciences)?
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stilicho25



Joined: 05 Apr 2010

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, this sort of thing is very worthwhile. Setting the atmosphere for industry to thrive is a good use of taxpayer money. The exploration of space will lead to man's ability to harness the resources of the solar system instead of just the earth. Whatever nation pioneers this will reap the benefits down the road. Plus, it's cool. And I like Firefly.
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UknowsI



Joined: 16 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Difficult question. The case is that some research is very cheap, while other research is so expensive. Many types of research only require a computer lab, where 90% of the expenditure goes to the scientists' wages, while I guess the large majority of the cost for space research is the physical cost of the rockets/cargo.

Personally I think theoretical physics and astronomy is great, but it's very hard to compare the spendings with anything else.
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Komichi



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Location: Piano Street, Seoul

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to see a bigger focus on the more immediate benefits offered by the biological sciences. But I did like the idea mentioned in the article of simply investing in another country's research. I don't see a problem with each country primarily specializing in one area, if we all can reap the benefits.
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northway



Joined: 05 Jul 2010

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mostly worthless. Put the money into schools.
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Sergio Stefanuto



Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space exploration produces negligible benefits in my opinion. I certainly support state-funded scientific research and development, mind you, but I would prefer it if we spent the money on something more useful.
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

northway wrote:
Mostly worthless. Put the money into schools.


Maybe, the Spanish should have invested more money in their schools instead of helping some guy named Columbus...
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Konglishman



Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:
Space exploration produces negligible benefits in my opinion. I certainly support state-funded scientific research and development, mind you, but I would prefer it if we spent the money on something more useful.


I think our basic problem is when we try to determine what is going to be useful. The fact is that there can be unexpected benefits when funding fundamental research.

Further, all that aside, we should be trying to answer the big questions (and small questions too) because it is our responsibility as a sentient species to understand this universe before we cease to exist as a species and the universe enters a heat death. At least, then, if only for a brief time (on a cosmological time scale), it could be said that the universe was understood.
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UknowsI



Joined: 16 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are obviously a lot of indirect benefits of space explorations. Space exploration requires cutting edge technology, and I think the same scientists working in other fields would not have come up with the same inventions. The direct benefits of space explorations are much more difficult to quantify. The benefits of the initial space explorations were huge. Satellites are great, but few people realised how important they would be when the first rockets were sent into space. However, further space exploration beyond earth's orbit hasn't brought many obvious benefits. Space exploration is very much a high risk high return science. The cost is huge, but there might potentially be great benefits somewhere far into the future, or there might even be benefits closer in time which we are not aware of yet. Many of these benefits will be benefits for mankind, and I therefore think it's fair for all the modernized nations to share the cost.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure. We can cut some of the fluff social programs to do so.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah we wouldn't get cool websites like this:

http://www.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=mars+3d+images&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=cw4mTbO-OZGosAOnrqDPAQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCIQsAQwAA&biw=1215&bih=792

or this:

http://www.stereoscopy.com/mars/
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The private sector relies heavily on public investment. Public research is a subsidy to private business. Even research that can not be monetized easily is often worthwhile. I don't know anything about the content of the OP so I can't comment on if the specific research in the OP is appropriate, but I'd lean towards continuing it.
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Steelrails



Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that space research contributed greatly to our knowledge of computers, propulsion, miniaturization, lasers, etc.

A lot of the tech there transfers over to both the military and into the commercial market. Normally I lean free-market, but this space research is a sphere that tends to produce "firsts" and has technology that can be adapted to various fields.
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Space Bar



Joined: 20 Oct 2010

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UknowsI wrote:
Personally I think theoretical physics and astronomy is great, but it's very hard to compare the spendings with anything else.

It is very easy to compare it to military expenditures. In fact, I'd much prefer the billions and trillions wasted on military boondoggles were wasted on space boondoggles instead.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most governments invest in scientific research and many in Space. I know that Canada is looking to build its own rockets. Of course these are investments that only payout in the long run but I think they are worth while.
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