Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Derrek]

Anyone here taught in Thailand? How would you compare it to Korea?

Looking for opinions about it. Was just on vacation there, and met some cool guys (and one real nice woman who owns a PC Bang).

Just looking for info. Feel free to post or PM. Thanks.

[jajdude]

At a not so good job at a big disorganized school I taught for 3-4 months in Thailand. Generally the pay is low in any "hagwon" there. I found 30,000 baht wasn't much. to stretch over a month, even while paying a rent of only 4000 for a room with bed and fridge and air con, and eating a good few 50 baht or less meals. Money goes quick if you like to hit BKK or drink or whatever. I was just outside BKK.

www.ajarn.com is a good site to check.

[JennyJJ]

Found the following in the JOB INFO JOURNAL - it exactly matches my two years experience teaching there:

Bangkok, Thailand
An overview of the EFL Teaching Profession in Thailand,
as seen by an Experienced & Qualified Teacher of EFL.

January 5th, 2002

From the perspective of having worked in a variety of other countries around the world, and now teaching in Thailand, I would paint the current situation as being poor to bad for the following reasons:

ISSUE ONE
The job market is dominated by generally unqualified and unskilled �teachers� who ply their �craft� in a rather unprofessional manner. Most are here and working illegally, meaning they are teaching, but do not have work permits nor the correct visas. As a result they are undependable and disappear on visa runs or just disappear leaving the schools (and in particular the students) without an instructor or, if replaced, with a poorly-prepared and often incomprehendable �transition� to a different topic, content, and style of teaching.

Many of these teachers (your competitors in the marketplace) have only two to four weeks of training and quite an overblown impression of their abilities. Many teachers have no training at all, just a backpack and a desire to �make a buck and move on�.

What does this mean to you as a potential teacher in Thailand?

1. It means management/administration of most schools, colleges, and universities see even the dependable and qualified teacher as dodgy, unreliable and unprofessional right from the first contact. It is not uncommon for some schools to a) withhold large portions of your pay packet until you complete your contract, or even b) demand a deposit from you that �guarantees� you will complete even just a five- or six-week course. It also means that your qualifications will always be in question and that anything you say will not be trusted.

Example: In a contact at a school, they noted that I had a certain degree and mentioned that I could teach a preparatory course for the requisite entrance exam.
I said I wasn�t sure that I could, I�d have to examine it and do some preparation. Because I said that, it was then made clear to me in the interview that they no longer believed that my degree was real. They are so used to BSers here that a professional attitude of, �Let�s take a look at it.� is seen as evidence of a lie. They wanted me to say, �Of course, I can do that!� regardless of whether it would have been best for the students or not. Regardless of whether I could do a good job of teaching it.


2. It means the wage structure will always remain at a minimal level. You can not save money here. You will not be able to afford to travel outside the country. Most here earn from 20,000 to 40,000 baht per month. There are, of course, braggarts on several forums on the www who make much greater claims, but this is standard fair from those who feel insecure about their position in the world. The wage structure is under constant attack by those who wish only enough so they can camp on the beach for another month before they move on. Most teachers here, even many who feel they are doing very well, live in tiny grubby one-room �bedsit� or �studio� or �efficiency� apartments. Why? They can�t afford anything better. Some think they are doing well, because as relatively unqualified people (some have only four-week certificates or nothing at all), they would be doing even more poorly back home.


3. It means that many unqualified and unskilled people, through long-time exposure to the job market here, have risen to management positions. This is a well-known and often chuckled-at fact. One school has a person in an executive position who frequently brags of three very different high-level admin-type jobs he held ALL AT THE SAME TIME over a twenty-year period! Yet no one challenges him. These people will present serious obstacles to the qualified teacher. This type of manager often prefers to keep things in a disorganized and crisis-type fashion as it distracts from their own incompetence. So you will find even small and simple schools run in a very disorganized fashion by �Western managers� (as they like to advertise themselves). These people will protect themselves in a very vigorous and nasty manner if they ever perceive that they may be challenged. You will be the victim.
Be careful!

Example: In a contact with one school, where I would be teaching courses in which I am exceptionally-experienced and well-qualified to teach, the interview went swimmingly. We left it with all smiles and the contact to be made the next day was only a formality as to setting a start date, etc. etc. The next day: no contact was made and repeated efforts to establish what happened were dead-ended. I found out only later (and indirectly from her staff) that the administrator at the next level was only a four-week certificate holder and had felt a bit �threatened and challenged� by the thought of a qualified professional under her command. There are way too many stories such as this in Thailand. Ask around, you will hear them.


ISSUE TWO:
Thailand is often hyped on www. forums by those who only passed through, or who only worked a few weeks or months and moved on. They don�t really know what it is like to stay and try to make a serious place for yourself here. The hype may also extend to some who have advertising space to sell on their websites.

And, even more problematic, Thailand is hyped by salesmen from a variety of certificate-selling companies that promote their programs and jobs here. This IS a beautiful land to visit, but not for work.

Example: Every day in Bangkok, in every English-language newspaper there are several ads for these schools. Some are a bit misleading in the sense that they advertise for jobs, but then make it clear that you must FIRST, or CONCURRENTLY take their course. One of these companies is well known for its poor wages, another is simply producing too many graduates often in local markets here that don�t need many teachers, further driving down the wage structure (and increasing their profit structure?). Some days in the Bangkok Post or The Nation there are no ads for EFL teachers at all, but these companies and their very effective salesmen (and marketing programs) have their ad there every day. Where is the real money? Are they looking for teachers, or just selling a program with a high profit potential?

ISSUE THREE:
Xenophobia is increasing. More and more Thais are looking with distrust and dislike at foreigners. The government is said by some to use this as an excuse for the poor economic situation. Another contributing factor has to be the constant scamming of students for their money by unqualified and unskilled teachers. It is becoming more common (and that is good!) for students to ask teachers if they are qualified to teach in their own country. They wonder why someone would come to their country, earn perhaps double or triple what a Thai teacher would earn, when they are not really a qualified teacher. Good question. A bit of a moral dilemma, should you take money from someone who has only a little, while pretending to be a real teacher?

There have been discussions of xenophobia on Dave�s ESLCafe forums as well as on ajarn.com. Just read some of the comments on ajarn.com to see the terrible attitudes of some of the teachers here. How could students miss that and not have their attitude change towards foreigners?


SUMMARY:
It is the intent of this review to counter some of the prevailing thought about Thailand. Many people will disagree. It is my intent to stay here, in spite of the problems, but I do feel that the misleading statements that are made by many, should be challenged.

Now, all that said, Thailand is a beautiful (outside the cities) country and the people are very friendly and tolerant. But, to some extent, this means that they have been taken advantage of by the backpackers and scammers that come here. Thai students are wonderful to teach: friendly and respectful, yet they will speak up and actively participate in class.

If you are seriously considering coming here to teach, take all the issues into consideration. If how you are perceived in your profession is important to you, know that you will be challenged here.

And if you do come, please have some respect for the people and their culture.


Posted: January 4, 2002

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

Derrek, sounds like you had a great time!

Did you play with any of the local gals?

[VanIslander]

JennyJJ's post is what many have stated on the 'net before and has convinced me that I'd be better off taking two-months savings and a cheap flight over there sometime to visit, not work, except perhaps to meet rural volunteer needs.

[Derrek]

[paul]

I was in Thailand for six weeks last August and September and i worked for a while after I vacationed, just to check it out.

I found that most schools will hire you no matter what if you have exp. and you are presentable and seem sincere. Unfortunateley, I hooked up with a public Catholic school and the schedule was very demanding.

I had to work four or five classes per day in very humid semi-outdoor classrooms (in a shirt and tie), that were a good five minute walk from the teacher's room. Doesn't sound like much but in the heat, it is a chore.

At least three of the classes were so huge and noisy, hardly anyone could hear me and the assistant teacher didn't really help much. Some of them like to see you squirm. Mind you, I was only there for two weeks.

The school itself seemed to be okay, and there was one guy there who was toeing he company line and seemed to be so happy! I really didn't like it compared to Korea. There really didn't seem to be any real urgency for these kids to learn English, even pretentiously.

And living there, teaching, is much different from vacationing there. As a western ESL teacher, you can't really afford the touristy stuff. And you are working, or traveling back and forth from work, 70% of your free time.

I'm sure after six months you could work yourself into a comfortable system and meet a nice Thai girl and have some fun. But I don't recommend it. However, some people do manage to get paid very well. Most of the western ESL teachers earn between $1,000 and $1,200 USD. Some do much better.

Stay in Seoul, save your cash and vacation in Thailand. And by the way, stay out of Pattaya and go to one of the islands. Koh Samui is great because it is very close to two other very popular islands, one of which holds the monthly "Full Moon Party".

One more bit of advice. If you go to Samui, spend the $100 on a roundtrip air ticket. You DO NOT want to take the 8 or 9 hour bus ride back! And there have been some reports of full busloads of people being robbed as they sleep.

Cheers

[Derrek]

Great info, Paul... thanks!

I might have mentioned that I met a nice girl who owns a very small PC Bang in Pattaya. She has given me a lot of tips, and basically said the same -- vacation here, but don't work here -- and stay away from the local girls in her town *laugh.*

I thought of investing in some small business there, just for the practice. It's a lot cheaper to own/operate something there, but I'll take a hard second-look when I go back there again.

Thanks again,
Derek

[jajdude]

The mention of Pattaya brings back some memories, as would BKK. The number of girls at the "beer bars" is unbelievable. It is fun and exciting but a little creepy too. Seen some 60 year old guys with 20 year old girls ----- a common thing there. And those "ladyboys" yikes, too many of those.

There is more to the place of course. But I guess its reputation and image is rather seedy for many people. I did like the somewhat international feel of the place. Some good restaurants and all, like BKK.

[Juggertha]

fond memories of Thailand.. but they were all vacationing. I'd keep it that way.

[Paji eh Wong]

I spent 3 months in Thailand last July, and I've decided I like Korea better.

JennyJJ's repost was a really good one, but it was written from the point of view of a career teacher. I aint a career teacher. I did one of those 1 month certificate programs she bags on, and I thought it was pretty good for what it was. You can find most of the problems she mentioned right here in Korea too. From what I've been reading, it's the same story most places.

The big thing in Thailand is the pay. JennyJJ's source is right to point out the competition factor. There's a lot of people who want to live in Thailand and teaching is the easiest way to do it. What she doesn't mention is that regular Thais just don't have the money to pay a foriegner a "decent" wage. Thailand is one of the top 5 countries in the world in terms of the gap between rich and poor. A Thai public school teacher there makes about 8000 bhat per month ($USD 200). There just isn't enough money to trickle down to you.

That's just the economics. Thailand calls itself the land of smiles, but it has this nasty underbelly that I didn't like much. If you think Korea is corrupt, wait till you spend time in Thailand. My friend had his place broken into, and when he went to the police, they asked for $USD 1000 to find his stuff. Thailand's human rights record is also pretty shitty. There was a war on drugs last year to clear up all of the cheap meth on the streets, and there was 2200 "extrajudicial" killings inside 3 months. The current PM, Thaksin, is also a bit of an assclown.

So given all that, I decided to come back to Korea, where at least the nastiness is up front.

You could make it work if you have money in the bank and can avoid the extra bull*&%$.

Good luck.

[jajdude]

I wonder why Vietnam and China and perhaps other poor places tend to pay a good bit better than Thailand.

Also I have heard from a few veteran foreigner teachers in Thailand that they believe the education system there is really lousy. We complain about Korea, but my suspicion is that Thailand's has a lot more problems.

It is sad the locals, university educated, maybe even fluent in English, get such poor pay. 8000 baht a month might drive me to work in a nite club!

[Patong Dong]

I worked in Thailand but in the timeshare industry, great money money if you can sell. I did have an interview in Phuket Town and they offered me the jon for 25 000 TB a month. Not bad for living but difficult to save. To get a work permit you have to have at least a degreee and a TEFL.

[Patong Dong]

Sorry, I didn't clarify, I had an interview for a teaching job.

[jajdude]

You need a TEFL? Not in 2001.