|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
|
 Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: Grammar: Can or Will? |
 |
|
Dialogue:
Q. Can I win the next game?
A. Don't worry, everything with be fine (Friend)
Q. Will I win the next game?
A. Don't worry, everything will be fine (Friend)
These sentences mean different things. But I'm having trouble explaining in a very simple way why it's Will instead of Can. Will generally means something close to "Must" while "can" is more like a 50 / 50 asking permission word |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can = is it possible
Will = sounds more confident or the person wants a more definite answer on the outcome. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| thought so, thanks |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Slowmotion wrote: |
Can = is it possible
Will = sounds more confident or the person wants a more definite answer on the outcome. |
I wouldn't agree with this. "will" has nothing to do with how a sentence will sound or with the degree of definition required.
Can = boolean. yes or no. I can, or I cannot. the reason is unimportant or unrequested.
Will = incorporates desire or motivation, often unspoken or unwritten.
written: I like dan, but i will punch him in the face for five dollars.
unwritten: I like dan, but i will punch him in the face. (motivation or desire unknown) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
can = Do I have the ability to win?
Will = What is the likelihood that I will win? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
can = Do I have the ability to win?
Will = What is the likelihood that I will win? |
I also disagree with this.
"can" is a boolean function, it itself has absolutely nothing to do with ability.
if someone is asked "can you do the dishes before dinner?" the answer is either yes or no. the person asking the question does not ultimately care if you have piano practice and won't be home before dinner, he or she just cares if you can or cannot do the dishes.
if you ask a man with no arms "can you touch your toes?" he would say no. he cannot because he obviously doesn't possess the ability to do so, but the ability or lack thereof is not inherently included in the question, the question is merely seeking a yes or a no. if you choose to include why you can or cannot, it would add clarification to the situation, but it is wholly unnecessary.
for example:
"i cannot touch my toes." : is a fully acceptable answer
vs
"i cannot touch my toes because i have no arms." : also acceptable, but unnecessary
"will" also has nothing to do with likelihood. likelihood would suggest that a randomness factor is integrated into the word. there is nothing random about the word "will." you either will or you will not. the main difference, again, is the addition of motivation or desire for the person answering or asking the question.
for example:
"i will skip piano practice and do the dishes if you let me borrow the ferrari this weekend."
the person answering the question can obviously do the dishes, but will only do so under a condition he or she desires.
also note that a question using "can" can be answered with a response using "will" if the person answering would like to add a desire or motivation into the response. however, if you ask a question with the word "will" it is almost always responded with a sentence containing the word "will" as well because you are responding to a question that already had a condition injected into it.
please refer to my original post on the topic for a simpler response. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 'Can' and 'will' have many different functions such as asking for permission, requests as in 'can you do the dishes?', conditional sentences as in 'I will skip piano practice and do the dishes if you let me borrow the ferrari this weekend." or ability such as 'can you swim?' or predictions such as 'will Manchester United win the league this year?' From the context I think ability and prediction are the most likely functions in the examples. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
can = Do I have the ability to win?
Will = What is the likelihood that I will win? |
I also disagree with this.
"can" is a boolean function, it itself has absolutely nothing to do with ability.
if someone is asked "can you do the dishes before dinner?" the answer is either yes or no. the person asking the question does not ultimately care if you have piano practice and won't be home before dinner, he or she just cares if you can or cannot do the dishes.
if you ask a man with no arms "can you touch your toes?" he would say no. he cannot because he obviously doesn't possess the ability to do so, but the ability or lack thereof is not inherently included in the question, the question is merely seeking a yes or a no. if you choose to include why you can or cannot, it would add clarification to the situation, but it is wholly unnecessary.
for example:
"i cannot touch my toes." : is a fully acceptable answer
vs
"i cannot touch my toes because i have no arms." : also acceptable, but unnecessary
"will" also has nothing to do with likelihood. likelihood would suggest that a randomness factor is integrated into the word. there is nothing random about the word "will." you either will or you will not. the main difference, again, is the addition of motivation or desire for the person answering or asking the question.
for example:
"i will skip piano practice and do the dishes if you let me borrow the ferrari this weekend."
the person answering the question can obviously do the dishes, but will only do so under a condition he or she desires.
also note that a question using "can" can be answered with a response using "will" if the person answering would like to add a desire or motivation into the response. however, if you ask a question with the word "will" it is almost always responded with a sentence containing the word "will" as well because you are responding to a question that already had a condition injected into it.
please refer to my original post on the topic for a simpler response. |
This is an interesting point...however...the boolean function reference would only make sense in a theoretical context-free environment of discourse analysis. It would seem the OP is decidedly not context-free.
I would go with Occam's razor on this one...and as you also point back to your simpler answer....the simplest is often the best.
As it stands....Ed has without doubt answered the OP's thread in his first post...which in its simplicity...is quite accurate as well...given the obvious references to context. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| "can" is a boolean function, it itself has absolutely nothing to do with ability. |
Not in the slightest. "Can" is used to denote the ability to do something.
http://web2.uvcs.uvic.ca/courses/elc/studyzone/330/grammar/330-modals-ability.htm
Can is a modal verb whose purpose is to express the ability to perform an action.
"Can I win the next game?" is asking if someone's opinion as to whether or not you possess the ability to win the next game. Whether that be a judgment call on your skill level or some other assessment.
| Quote: |
if someone is asked "can you do the dishes before dinner?" the answer is either yes or no. the person asking the question does not ultimately care if you have piano practice and won't be home before dinner, he or she just cares if you can or cannot do the dishes. |
Yes, they are asking you if you have the ability to do the dishes before dinner. They may not care what the reason is, but ultimately they are asking you if there exists a reason that could prevent you from doing the dishes.
| Quote: |
| if you ask a man with no arms "can you touch your toes?" he would say no. he cannot because he obviously doesn't possess the ability to do so, but the ability or lack thereof is not inherently included in the question, the question is merely seeking a yes or a no. if you choose to include why you can or cannot, it would add clarification to the situation, but it is wholly unnecessary. |
And again, you're still asking for ability. You may not at the time of the question care what the reason may be for the lack of ability, but you're still asking whether or not someone has the ability to perform a certain action.
| Quote: |
| "i cannot touch my toes." : is a fully acceptable answer |
Just because it doesn't state what the lack of ability is doesn't mean it's not indicating that the speaker has a lack of ability.
Your understanding of "Will" is equally as sketchy. Will is used for a couple of things. One thing is to express and ask intent, the other thing is to make personal predictions. In this case, the speaker is asking for a prediction.
http://www.findyourfeet.de/usr/doc/FyF_cm_grammarunit03.pdf
This kind of stuff is covered at even a basic level in most english curriculum |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wishful thinking, you're basically blending the definitions of 'can' into one meaning.
| Quote: |
1. be able to: to have the ability, knowledge, or opportunity to do something
Can you swim? |
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?lextype=3&search=can
Can you do the dishes for me is
| Quote: |
3. be allowed to: to be allowed to do something, either by legal or moral right or by permission |
I mean a simple example would be a vastly superior sports team playing against a huge underdog. A fan of the underdog team might ask one of his fellow fans, "Do you think we can beat them?"
This is in no way asking for their permission. Again you're mixing two separate definitions into one. He is asking if it's possible the can beat the other team or have the ability to beat the other team.
"I haven't studied, do you think I can still pass the test?" --> I didn't study do you think it's still possible I can pass the test?
Also wrong about "will"
| Quote: |
expectation: used to express surmise or likelihood
Example: That will be them at the door now.
Example: He will have left the country by now |
-Will humans be alive in the year 3000?
-Will Obama be reelected?
-Will the police believe your alibi?
This one might apply as well
| Quote: |
8. inclination: used to indicate the inevitability of something happening or being true |
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?lextype=3&search=will
Hope you got your answer OP
Last edited by Slowmotion on Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teacherinseoul
Joined: 18 May 2008
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Can...? = Is it possible...?
Will...? = Do you predict...?
Will is used for prediction (so is "to be going to"). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
while i understand the reasoning behind why encarta and other sources define can and will the way they do, i still don't agree with it. maybe it's my own method of thinking.
now, for your example of the sports match and the question "do you think we can beat them?"
i never mentioned anything about permission. my definition was that the usage of the word "can" is only seeking a yes or no response, so we're fundamentally saying the same thing, although as my second post pointed out i don't think ability has anything to do with the usage of the word and i was cautious to point it out.
as for "will," let's dive into that.
you responded with:
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Example: That will be them at the door now. |
I think that sentence should be "that would be them at the door now." which is not the word "will". english gurus can correct me if i am incorrect on this one because i am uncertain myself.
another example you gave was:
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Example: He will have left the country by now |
again, a condition (although unstated and unknown) is in this sentence. for example "he will have left the country by now (unless immigrations stopped him)."
when starting questions with the word "will" it's a little more complicated and subtle, but i still stand by my definition of an injected condition, stated or unstated. in your examples they are all unstated.
-Will Obama be reelected (because he has some serious competition this election!)?
-Will the police believe your alibi (if you are guilty and can't make a good story)?
anywho, again, i understand how people are getting their definitions, but i think those definitions makes the words both more difficult to understand and simplifies them too much in a strange dichotomous way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dave's posters, now more credible than dictionaries 
By the way, those sentences you are correcting are from the dictionary, not my own. My examples are outside the quotebox. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
while i understand the reasoning behind why encarta and other sources define can and will the way they do, i still don't agree with it. maybe it's my own method of thinking.
now, for your example of the sports match and the question "do you think we can beat them?"
i never mentioned anything about permission. my definition was that the usage of the word "can" is only seeking a yes or no response, so we're fundamentally saying the same thing, although as my second post pointed out i don't think ability has anything to do with the usage of the word and i was cautious to point it out.
as for "will," let's dive into that.
you responded with:
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Example: That will be them at the door now. |
I think that sentence should be "that would be them at the door now." which is not the word "will". english gurus can correct me if i am incorrect on this one because i am uncertain myself.
another example you gave was:
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| Example: He will have left the country by now |
again, a condition (although unstated and unknown) is in this sentence. for example "he will have left the country by now (unless immigrations stopped him)."
when starting questions with the word "will" it's a little more complicated and subtle, but i still stand by my definition of an injected condition, stated or unstated. in your examples they are all unstated.
-Will Obama be reelected (because he has some serious competition this election!)?
-Will the police believe your alibi (if you are guilty and can't make a good story)?
anywho, again, i understand how people are getting their definitions, but i think those definitions makes the words both more difficult to understand and simplifies them too much in a strange dichotomous way. |
...wishfullthinkng...you have some interesting ideas about this subject.
� not disagreeing with your alternative views...though it would be nice to see some references as to how you come about �disagreeing� with the views also presented in this thread.
Can and will...have many functions/definitions given their prescriptive grammatical function and pragmatic usage.
In the OP...it seems the pragmatic usage for can and will (again, intuitively inferred given the context in which they are being used)...are ability and probability.
That being said...this thread would benefit if you could provide some references or even some credible links to your views on Boolean function and how this would supersede the other definitions or functions also being offered as semantically valid grammatical structures. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
I think that sentence should be "that would be them at the door now." which is not the word "will". english gurus can correct me if i am incorrect on this one because i am uncertain myself.
|
The doorbell rings and someone says 'that would be them at the door."?
Are you sure? I can't imagine anyone saying that.
| Quote: |
when starting questions with the word "will" it's a little more complicated and subtle, but i still stand by my definition of an injected condition, stated or unstated. in your examples they are all unstated.
|
Are you a teacher? If so, imagine an adult intermediate student, whose first language you don't know, just asked you what the difference between 'Can I win' and 'will I win' is. Very simply, just like the OP requested, how would you explain it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
