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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: Osama bin Laden and the Death of Democratic Weakness |
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Perceived political vulnerability about the party's ability to keep America safe and strong has led Democrats, time and time again, to engineer their national security policies around looking tough rather than necessarily doing what they believe is best for the country. The politics of vulnerability don't just influence policy -- often, they trump it altogether.
But on Sunday, May 1, that meme may have finally died.
With the killing of bin Laden, Democrats have, for the first time in more than four decades, the chance to retire the notion that they are not tough enough to protect America from external danger. Beyond that immediate political function, it provides Democrats with the opportunity to chart a new course for American foreign policy. The question now is whether they will take advantage of this previously unbeknown political space. |
I'm not sure how long this will last, as it really comes down to how it is perceived by the electorate as a whole rather than just the chattering classes/politico.com folks in DC |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, Obama the warmongering Nobel peace prize winning joke of a president stages a killing of Osama, kills a bunch of unidentified unarmed people, and gets to act tough. What a brilliant political strategy. |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah, Obama the warmongering Nobel peace prize winning joke of a president stages a killing of Osama, kills a bunch of unidentified unarmed people, and gets to act tough. What a brilliant political strategy. |
Because Osama was actually killed during the Bush presidency, but Bush was too humble to take credit for it. Or the CIA decided there would be more lulz in giving Osama a new identity and making him promise to stop being a terrorist. Or maybe the rapture happened, but only Osama was the chosen one. Or maybe the U.S. government is going to pretend Osama's dead and pray that he never makes another video ever again.
Seriously, this conspiracy bull███ is getting stupid. I'm happy to see people pointing out discrepancies in the government account, but there's no reasonable scenario where Osama isn't dead. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| Yeah, Obama the warmongering Nobel peace prize winning joke of a president stages a killing of Osama, kills a bunch of unidentified unarmed people, and gets to act tough. What a brilliant political strategy. |
Because Osama was actually killed during the Bush presidency, but Bush was too humble to take credit for it. Or the CIA decided there would be more lulz in giving Osama a new identity and making him promise to stop being a terrorist. Or maybe the rapture happened, but only Osama was the chosen one. Or maybe the U.S. government is going to pretend Osama's dead and pray that he never makes another video ever again.
Seriously, this conspiracy bull███ is getting stupid. I'm happy to see people pointing out discrepancies in the government account, but there's no reasonable scenario where Osama isn't dead. |
Apparently he died of Kidney failure not long after 9/11. Why would Bush take credit for it when that was his whole reason for taking the country to war? Hell, at one point he was even telling us Saddam was supporting Al Qaida so we had to invade Iraq too  Take the bogeyman Osama out of the picture and you're not left with much to work with...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1819280,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/28/eveningnews/main325887.shtml
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/01/18/gen.musharraf.binladen/ |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Who said OBL died of kidney failure? Doesn't matter who said it; they have more credibility because it fits the conspiracy theory. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Who said OBL died of kidney failure? |
Among others, Dr. Richard Devereux was quoted in Salon online magazine in 2001:
"He is Marfanoid," says Dr. Richard Devereux, a clinician who treats patients with the illness at the Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York. "He seems to have long fingers and long arms. His head appears to be elongated and his face narrow ... It's certainly conceivable that he has the Marfan syndrome and could be evaluated for it."
Though people have long speculated about bin Laden having Marfan, federal officials won't answer questions about his health. "We don't discuss the medical conditions of our enemy commanders," says Maj. Jay Steuck, a Defense Department spokesman. And a Central Intelligence Agency spokesman says, "We don't do unclassified medical summaries."
http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2001/11/09/marfan/print.html
And then of course there's the ex-president of Pakistan saying on record (back in 2002) that he was on dialysis:
"Pakistan's president says he thinks Osama bin Laden is most likely dead because the suspected terrorist has been unable to get treatment for his kidney disease.
"I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a ... kidney patient," Gen. Pervez Musharraf said on Friday in an interview with CNN.
Musharraf said Pakistan knew bin Laden took two dialysis machines into Afghanistan. "One was specifically for his own personal use," he said."
http://articles.cnn.com/2002-01-18/world/gen.musharraf.binladen_1_bin-mullah-mohammed-omar-pakistan-s-musharraf?_s=PM:asiapcf
Funny how there was no dialysis equipment found in the dilapidated compound (earlier described as a million dollar mansion before they changed their story) where they claimed they shot him. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Doesn't matter who said it; they have more credibility because it fits the conspiracy theory. |
Funny how you skip over parts of posts. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Doesn't matter who said it; they have more credibility because it fits the conspiracy theory. |
Funny how you skip over parts of posts. |
Funny how you fail to refute anything with any facts of your own. Laziness? Or you just got nothing? |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Who said OBL died of kidney failure? |
Among others, Dr. Richard Devereux was quoted in Salon online magazine in 2001:
"He is Marfanoid," says Dr. Richard Devereux, a clinician who treats patients with the illness at the Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York. "He seems to have long fingers and long arms. His head appears to be elongated and his face narrow ... It's certainly conceivable that he has the Marfan syndrome and could be evaluated for it."
Though people have long speculated about bin Laden having Marfan, federal officials won't answer questions about his health. "We don't discuss the medical conditions of our enemy commanders," says Maj. Jay Steuck, a Defense Department spokesman. And a Central Intelligence Agency spokesman says, "We don't do unclassified medical summaries."
http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2001/11/09/marfan/print.html
And then of course there's the ex-president of Pakistan saying on record (back in 2002) that he was on dialysis:
"Pakistan's president says he thinks Osama bin Laden is most likely dead because the suspected terrorist has been unable to get treatment for his kidney disease.
"I think now, frankly, he is dead for the reason he is a ... kidney patient," Gen. Pervez Musharraf said on Friday in an interview with CNN.
Musharraf said Pakistan knew bin Laden took two dialysis machines into Afghanistan. "One was specifically for his own personal use," he said."
http://articles.cnn.com/2002-01-18/world/gen.musharraf.binladen_1_bin-mullah-mohammed-omar-pakistan-s-musharraf?_s=PM:asiapcf
Funny how there was no dialysis equipment found in the dilapidated compound (earlier described as a million dollar mansion before they changed their story) where they claimed they shot him. |
Why is it that Dr. Richard Devreux (who never had access to Bin Laden) now refuses to talk about his original "diagnosis".
Why is it that Dr. Hal Dietz of Johns Hopkins University, the guy that FREAKING FIRST GENETICALLY MAPPED MARFAN MUTATIONS, does not agree with the diagnosis. Bin Laden doesn't have the eyes of a Marfan sufferer, he doesn't have the bone deformities, he didn't have the heart problems.
Hmmmm..... |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| Why is it that Dr. Richard Devreux (who never had access to Bin Laden) now refuses to talk about his original "diagnosis". |
Maybe he feels threatened?
| Quote: |
Why is it that Dr. Hal Dietz of Johns Hopkins University, the guy that FREAKING FIRST GENETICALLY MAPPED MARFAN MUTATIONS, does not agree with the diagnosis. Bin Laden doesn't have the eyes of a Marfan sufferer, he doesn't have the bone deformities, he didn't have the heart problems.
Hmmmm..... |
Dr. Hal Dietz didn't have access to Bin Laden either. His is one opinion on the matter (and he didn't state that definitively that he didn't have Marfans).
""It's a very complicated diagnosis to establish," says Dr. Hal Dietz, a geneticist at Johns Hopkins University, who led the team that discovered the mutant gene responsible for Marfan. "There is no DNA test that can absolutely confirm whether someone has it."
Because there's no screening process or dead giveaway that a person has the disease, a Marfan diagnosis is an intricate process of elimination that almost always begins by sizing up someone's physical features. Marfan sufferers typically have an unusual outward appearance, often called Marfanoid. More often than not, the disease strikes very tall people. They tend to be lean and lanky, with long, spidery fingers, curved spines, scant muscle, crooked chests and elongated faces and heads."
Regardless, OBL is known to have been on kidney dialysis. See the quote by Musharraf above, which you avoided responding to. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| Why is it that Dr. Richard Devreux (who never had access to Bin Laden) now refuses to talk about his original "diagnosis". |
Maybe he feels threatened?
| Quote: |
Why is it that Dr. Hal Dietz of Johns Hopkins University, the guy that FREAKING FIRST GENETICALLY MAPPED MARFAN MUTATIONS, does not agree with the diagnosis. Bin Laden doesn't have the eyes of a Marfan sufferer, he doesn't have the bone deformities, he didn't have the heart problems.
Hmmmm..... |
Dr. Hal Dietz didn't have access to Bin Laden either. His is one opinion on the matter (and he didn't state that definitively that he didn't have Marfans).
""It's a very complicated diagnosis to establish," says Dr. Hal Dietz, a geneticist at Johns Hopkins University, who led the team that discovered the mutant gene responsible for Marfan. "There is no DNA test that can absolutely confirm whether someone has it."
Because there's no screening process or dead giveaway that a person has the disease, a Marfan diagnosis is an intricate process of elimination that almost always begins by sizing up someone's physical features. Marfan sufferers typically have an unusual outward appearance, often called Marfanoid. More often than not, the disease strikes very tall people. They tend to be lean and lanky, with long, spidery fingers, curved spines, scant muscle, crooked chests and elongated faces and heads."
Regardless, OBL is known to have been on kidney dialysis. See the quote by Musharraf above, which you avoided responding to. |
"I think it�s pure speculation with minimal basis in fact,� Dietz said.
And bolding where my source says it is hard to diagnosis, further supports my argument that a guy who looked at his pictureon TV and made the claim is not a source that should be trusted in diagnosing him with Marfan.
It is ALLEGED (not known) that OBL was on kidney dialysis by a number of sources. And it was also denied by himself and many others too. So I don't know if he was on dialysis or not. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| It is ALLEGED (not known) that OBL was on kidney dialysis by a number of sources. |
Yeah, just as it was "alleged" that he was killed in the recent operation and his body dumped into the ocean with no proof. You don't "know" that either. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| It is ALLEGED (not known) that OBL was on kidney dialysis by a number of sources. |
Yeah, just as it was "alleged" that he was killed in the recent operation and his body dumped into the ocean with no proof. You don't "know" that either. |
I will agree with you in that it is impossible to know something for sure 100%. (But that goes for anything, like the we are living in a matrix thing I posted in the other thread) But to me, the evidence overwhelming points to OBL being killed. Enough so that I believe it.
So you think otherwise. There really isn't much more we can say about it.
I understand your point about not getting to see the body. But do you think it would be a good idea to hang OBL in the national mall so every school kid can whack him with a stick to make sure he's really dead?
Do you really think that all the Senators who have been shown the pictures of his body are also lying. (and just claiming that they've lied before isn't really an argument. Everyone has lied before, so that means you should never trust anyone ever?) And so is Ron Paul? Its kind of hard to have a discussion with someone who claims you can't trust them because they lied before. I'm sure you have too right? So by that logic no one should ever trust a thing you say. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| But to me, the evidence overwhelming points to OBL being killed. |
How could the evidence "overwhelmingly" point to anything? What evidence? All you're doing is taking the president's word for it. Same goes for anyone else who says they believe it (ie. most of your so-called "sources"). That's literally all you are doing.
| Quote: |
| I understand your point about not getting to see the body. But do you think it would be a good idea to hang OBL in the national mall so every school kid can whack him with a stick to make sure he's really dead? |
His body should be cross examined to confirm it was really him, with photos. It should all be available info.
More than that, if it really were him they shouldn't have shot him. They should have made every possible effort to capture him alive to get info from (if he's really the criminal mastermind they claim he is). To do otherwise is practically criminal negligence.
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| Do you really think that all the Senators who have been shown the pictures of his body are also lying. |
I really think the senators are either lying or possibly just nodded their head in agreement at some pictures they saw. How are they qualified to determine if they were real pictures or not? They're not.
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| (and just claiming that they've lied before isn't really an argument. |
Yeah, it really is. I'm not talking about Slick Willy lying about receiving blow-jobs or something mundane. I'm talking about a government that deliberately lied to take the country to an illegal war. They blamed it all on Osama, the man they claimed they have now killed and destroyed all traces of. No capture, no account from him, not even any proof that they killed him. Nothing. We cannot simply take their word on it. |
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