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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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 Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: Total lack of professionalism by top 5 university |
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So much for being discreet:
A friend of mine (Ph.D) at our school recently applied with another Korean school. The new job is at a top university (think top 5), and provides tenure. Our school does not provide foreign Ph.D's with the possibility of tenure.
Unfortunately, my coworker did not get the job, and has found himself in the unfortunate position of fearing for renewal at our school. The problem is that the school he is applying for CALLED our school to ask about him. Quite unprofessionally, they TOLD our school he was looking! My coworker learned about this from one of our Korean coworkers who overheard it being discussed by our staff.
Nice.
Really, really feel for the guy. I hope he doesn't get booted over this. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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...so in your world, it is unprofessional to check someone's work history?
You apply for a job, your old boss is going to get called -- when that DOESN'T happen, I think it is unprofessional. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| It depends. Did the professor list a reference contact? If so, contact the reference. If they contacted other people, then that is unprofessional and out of line. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Bibbitybop wrote: |
| It depends. Did the professor list a reference contact? If so, contact the reference. If they contacted other people, then that is unprofessional and out of line. |
What do you mean by "other people?"
If I work in the English Department, and I list the job on my employment history portion of an application, I fully expect them to contact the Head of the English Department and ask about my job performance -- whether or not that person is listed as a reference. However, I do not expect them to chat up my co-workers, the secretaries, or the janitors about me, unless I have specifically listed those people as references.
Talking to the previous employer, whether or not that employer is a listed reference, is entirely professional, and should have been expected.... |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| Talking to the previous employer, whether or not that employer is a listed reference, is entirely professional, and should have been expected.... |
I'd say that the "resume expert" on monster.com agrees more with your position that it's up to the applicant to inform potential employers whether to keep the job search confidential or not:
http://career-advice.monster.com/job-search/getting-started/keep-your-job-search-secret/article.aspx |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Obviously, they were asked to keep it a secret, or this wouldn't have been posted.
Even if he hadn't, it is obvious not to contact the current employer for information as it could put the employee in jeopardy. With the way employers in Korea view their employees as property, it doesn't even have to be asked. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
Obviously, they were asked to keep it a secret, or this wouldn't have been posted.
Even if he hadn't, it is obvious not to contact the current employer for information as it could put the employee in jeopardy. With the way employers in Korea view their employees as property, it doesn't even have to be asked. |
Yeah, I still don't get it -- "Hi, I'd like to work for you, but please don't talk to my current boss -- he doesn't know I am looking for another job -- Tee Hee!"
I understand the words you are posting, but I just don't get how it is the university that is lacking in professionalism, and not the applicant.... |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
Obviously, they were asked to keep it a secret, or this wouldn't have been posted.
Even if he hadn't, it is obvious not to contact the current employer for information as it could put the employee in jeopardy. With the way employers in Korea view their employees as property, it doesn't even have to be asked. |
Yeah, I still don't get it -- "Hi, I'd like to work for you, but please don't talk to my current boss -- he doesn't know I am looking for another job -- Tee Hee!"
I understand the words you are posting, but I just don't get how it is the university that is lacking in professionalism, and not the applicant.... |
Exactly. Also, for a tenure-track uni position, it is just naive to think that they wouldn't need to call any and all references. |
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Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Total lack of professionalism by top 5 university |
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If you have ambition to move to another job you should tell your current employer, at least give them the opportunity to talk to you about your concerns. I have applied for a job at another school, I am even breaking my contract 1/2 way through. I gave my co workers my reasons why, I told them that I'm very sorry, I assured them that it would not effect our students, and I would do everything in my power to ensure a smooth and organized transitional period for the school, new teacher and the students.
The school understood and let me go for the interview, and from what I understand I have got the job. I'm sure if he had done this there would be no problem. The fact is he has broken the trust of his current school, there is no guarantee he won't do it again. Or perhaps he was a little naive, anyway it is a lesson learned.
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
So much for being discreet:
A friend of mine (Ph.D) at our school recently applied with another Korean school. The new job is at a top university (think top 5), and provides tenure. Our school does not provide foreign Ph.D's with the possibility of tenure.
Unfortunately, my coworker did not get the job, and has found himself in the unfortunate position of fearing for renewal at our school. The problem is that the school he is applying for CALLED our school to ask about him. Quite unprofessionally, they TOLD our school he was looking! My coworker learned about this from one of our Korean coworkers who overheard it being discussed by our staff.
Nice.
Really, really feel for the guy. I hope he doesn't get booted over this. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Pure comedy.
Love how people create their own rules as they go along to support their argument. Quotes, people? Some of you have your Ph.D's (although from Korean universities -- perhaps this is the problem)? Please feel free to provide us with some quotes supporting your position in this argument (something more than a quote from Monster that actually supports my position). 
No, even in the academic community, it is considered unprofessional for an insititution to contact a prospective employee's current employer without asking permission to do so. The rule of thumb is that an individual applying for a tenure-track position should provide a solid confidential reference/references to the school he/she is applying. That individual should be in a position worthy of vouching for the person applying, and be able to speak to their work.
It is NOT in any way, shape, or form "acceptable" for an employer at the job being applied for to, without permission or notification, ring-up a non-referenced individual in the department and say, "Hey, Mr. Smith is applying for a tenure-track position at our university.... what do you think about him?"
Here:
http://jobsearch.about.com/od/referencesrecommendations/a/referencetips.htm
| Quote: |
| A prospective employer should ask your permission before contacting your references. This is especially important if you are employed - you don't want to surprise your current employer with a phone call checking your references. |
https://jobs.illinois.edu/default.cfm?page=job&jobID=5072
| Quote: |
| References will not be contacted until advanced stages of screening and candidates will receive prior notification. |
http://www.crech.org/joomla15/career-opportunities-mainmenu-102/296-wake-forest-university-school-of-medicine-open-rank-tenure-track-faculty-position-
| Quote: |
Applications will be considered confidential, and references will not be contacted without the permission of applicants. |
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Bibbitybop
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
Pure comedy.
Love how people create their own rules as they go along to support their argument. Quotes, people? Some of you have your Ph.D's (although from Korean universities -- perhaps this is the problem)? Please feel free to provide us with some quotes supporting your position in this argument (something more than a quote from Monster that actually supports my position).
No, even in the academic community, it is considered unprofessional for an insititution to contact a prospective employee's current employer without asking permission to do so. The rule of thumb is that an individual applying for a tenure-track position should provide a solid confidential reference/references to the school he/she is applying. That individual should be in a position worthy of vouching for the person applying, and be able to speak to their work.
It is NOT in any way, shape, or form "acceptable" for an employer at the job being applied for to, without permission or notification, ring-up a non-referenced individual in the department and say, "Hey, Mr. Smith is applying for a tenure-track position at our university.... what do you think about him?"
Here:
http://jobsearch.about.com/od/referencesrecommendations/a/referencetips.htm
| Quote: |
| A prospective employer should ask your permission before contacting your references. This is especially important if you are employed - you don't want to surprise your current employer with a phone call checking your references. |
https://jobs.illinois.edu/default.cfm?page=job&jobID=5072
| Quote: |
| References will not be contacted until advanced stages of screening and candidates will receive prior notification. |
http://www.crech.org/joomla15/career-opportunities-mainmenu-102/296-wake-forest-university-school-of-medicine-open-rank-tenure-track-faculty-position-
| Quote: |
Applications will be considered confidential, and references will not be contacted without the permission of applicants. |
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This. |
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Ramen
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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usually, the applicant can ask the prospective employer to not contact their current employer until after he/she has been selected for the job. i have done it before and they always followed through.
in the u.s. you can be sued for contacting your current employer for reference without applicant's explicit permission. and at the same time, you can be deselected/fired for the job if they discover that you lied in your application.
op, did your friend ask them not to contact your current employer until after they made their final decision?  |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bibbitybop wrote: |
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
Pure comedy.
Love how people create their own rules as they go along to support their argument. Quotes, people? Some of you have your Ph.D's (although from Korean universities -- perhaps this is the problem)? Please feel free to provide us with some quotes supporting your position in this argument (something more than a quote from Monster that actually supports my position).
No, even in the academic community, it is considered unprofessional for an insititution to contact a prospective employee's current employer without asking permission to do so. The rule of thumb is that an individual applying for a tenure-track position should provide a solid confidential reference/references to the school he/she is applying. That individual should be in a position worthy of vouching for the person applying, and be able to speak to their work.
It is NOT in any way, shape, or form "acceptable" for an employer at the job being applied for to, without permission or notification, ring-up a non-referenced individual in the department and say, "Hey, Mr. Smith is applying for a tenure-track position at our university.... what do you think about him?"
Here:
http://jobsearch.about.com/od/referencesrecommendations/a/referencetips.htm
| Quote: |
| A prospective employer should ask your permission before contacting your references. This is especially important if you are employed - you don't want to surprise your current employer with a phone call checking your references. |
https://jobs.illinois.edu/default.cfm?page=job&jobID=5072
| Quote: |
| References will not be contacted until advanced stages of screening and candidates will receive prior notification. |
http://www.crech.org/joomla15/career-opportunities-mainmenu-102/296-wake-forest-university-school-of-medicine-open-rank-tenure-track-faculty-position-
| Quote: |
Applications will be considered confidential, and references will not be contacted without the permission of applicants. |
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This. |
...so, did this Korean university state in its application materials or in its job posting that employers would NOT be contacted -- seems like the places that do NOT contact employers without permission state it pretty clearly in their materials. If the university stated that they would not be contacting employers without candidate permission or notification, then yeah, I am on your side -- they went back on what they said, and were therefore unprofessional.
However, there is no EXPECTATION that the university would not contact the current employer -- hence the reason why some places STATE they will not -- you can't PRESUME they won't, so they tell you they won't. If they don't say they won't, one should presume they WILL, and either ask them not to, or cowboy up and be ready for it.
Did the job ad or application materials have the same kind of assurances of discretion to which you linked? If not, then I stand at my original position. If they did, then I will step over to your side. |
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dharma bum
Joined: 15 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
...so, did this Korean university state in its application materials or in its job posting that employers would NOT be contacted -- seems like the places that do NOT contact employers without permission state it pretty clearly in their materials. If the university stated that they would not be contacting employers without candidate permission or notification, then yeah, I am on your side -- they went back on what they said, and were therefore unprofessional.
However, there is no EXPECTATION that the university would not contact the current employer -- hence the reason why some places STATE they will not -- you can't PRESUME they won't, so they tell you they won't. If they don't say they won't, one should presume they WILL, and either ask them not to, or cowboy up and be ready for it.
Did the job ad or application materials have the same kind of assurances of discretion to which you linked? If not, then I stand at my original position. If they did, then I will step over to your side. |
The OP has said that his/her friend requested that the university be discrete. If that request hadn't been made, I would say that the friend shared responsibility and should have been more careful, but, as it stands, I have to say I just feel sorry for him/her - really bad luck there. |
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Skyblue
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| It is NOT in any way, shape, or form "acceptable" for an employer at the job being applied for to, without permission or notification, ring-up a non-referenced individual in the department and say, "Hey, Mr. Smith is applying for a tenure-track position at our university.... what do you think about him?" |
I agree completely. Even after providing references, I am usually asked for permission to contact them. This also works in the potential employer's favor, as they want you to give your referee's a head's up so they are ready and willing to answer questions. |
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