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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: Extremists finding fertile ground in Northwest US |
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KALISPELL, Mont. � With its jagged peaks, glistening lakes and lush valleys, the Inland Northwest � stretching from eastern Washington to Montana's Glacier National Park � is a stunningly beautiful and remote part of the country.
It also is a cradle for sometimes-violent anti-government activity � a reputation most recently rekindled by the search for David Burgert. The former Kalispell militia leader is accused of opening fire on sheriff's deputies on a remote logging road in Lolo National Forest.
After a lull following the demise of the Idaho-based neo-Nazi Aryan Nations in 2000, anti-government and white supremacist groups and individuals may be reviving in the Inland Northwest. It's a mostly white, mostly rural area with few job opportunities and a history of extreme activists.
Experts say the number of radical right groups is growing across the country because of the poor state of the economy, rising immigration and fears that President Barack Obama's administration has an agenda to curtail individual liberties.
They include so-called patriot groups, which fear one-world government and don't accept the federal government's authority. And they like northwest Montana because there is no dominant major city with liberal politics. It also has a deep libertarian streak and live-and-let-live attitude, said Travis McAdam, executive director of the Helena-based Montana Human Rights Network, an anti-hate group.
"A lot of anti-government energy has been building up over the last couple of years," McAdam said.
Sometimes the energy boils over.
Burgert is accused of firing shots at Missoula County sheriff's deputies June 12 before he disappeared into the Lolo National Forest. Burgert is a longtime patriot activist who spent eight years in prison on weapons charges � he had a machine gun when he was arrested � and U.S. authorities charged him at the time with trying to spark a revolution. He was released in 2010.
"He harbors great animosity for law enforcement and government in general," Missoula County Sheriff Carl Ibsen said.
In January, an attempt was made in Spokane to bomb the city's Martin Luther King Jr. Day parade. The bomb was found and disarmed before it could explode. The FBI called it an act of domestic terrorism that could have killed and injured many people.
White supremacist Kevin Harpham has been charged in the case and could face life in prison. His trial begins in August.
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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There should be a disclaimer:
These aren't Muslim extremists |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: Extremists finding fertile ground in Northwest US |
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| catman wrote: |
Experts say the number of radical right groups is growing across the country because of the poor state of the economy, rising immigration and fears that President Barack Obama's administration has an agenda to curtail individual liberties.
They include so-called patriot groups, which fear one-world government and don't accept the federal government's authority. And they like northwest Montana because there is no dominant major city with liberal politics. It also has a deep libertarian streak and live-and-let-live attitude, said Travis McAdam, executive director of the Helena-based Montana Human Rights Network, an anti-hate group. |
Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original 
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Extremists finding fertile ground in Northwest US |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
Experts say the number of radical right groups is growing across the country because of the poor state of the economy, rising immigration and fears that President Barack Obama's administration has an agenda to curtail individual liberties.
They include so-called patriot groups, which fear one-world government and don't accept the federal government's authority. And they like northwest Montana because there is no dominant major city with liberal politics. It also has a deep libertarian streak and live-and-let-live attitude, said Travis McAdam, executive director of the Helena-based Montana Human Rights Network, an anti-hate group. |
Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
The article is not talking about libertarians though. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Extremists finding fertile ground in Northwest US |
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| catman wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
Experts say the number of radical right groups is growing across the country because of the poor state of the economy, rising immigration and fears that President Barack Obama's administration has an agenda to curtail individual liberties.
They include so-called patriot groups, which fear one-world government and don't accept the federal government's authority. And they like northwest Montana because there is no dominant major city with liberal politics. It also has a deep libertarian streak and live-and-let-live attitude, said Travis McAdam, executive director of the Helena-based Montana Human Rights Network, an anti-hate group. |
Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
The article is not talking about libertarians though. |
How is it not talking about libertarians?? Did you read the exact section I quoted? People (ie. whackos it seems to infer) who believe there's a one world government agenda are "so-called" patriots? It specifically says they are "included" in the radical right wing groups... and they're lumped right in with neo-Nazis (who apparently only want to live in places with a libertarian streak, since they're apparently equivalent ). Anyway, it seems like about as biased as an article can get, but feel free to correct me again if I've misread anything... |
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soupsandwich
Joined: 20 May 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
I find it amazing that since very few, if any, black Americans live in that area of the country...and the people associated with these groups are domintatley white, it calls for "white supremeist" tags.
soupsandwich |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| soupsandwich wrote: |
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Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
I find it amazing that since very few, if any, black Americans live in that area of the country...and the people associated with these groups are domintatley white, it calls for "white supremeist" tags.
soupsandwich |
Libertarians are also overwhelmingly white, and many have gone on the record that the civil rights bill was a government overstep, many states rightists, a substrian of libertarianism, believe that the state is more likely to pass discriminatory legislation, etc. Its safe to say that they have some things in common. Also visitorq if this government is just a conspiracy of the elite, than what about libertarianism..... look who's bankrolling it, are the koch brothers any less elite than, well anybody? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem is that White Nationalist have adopted the term "libertarian" as well to look more legit. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| They aren't "finding" ground in the northwest; they have been there for a long long time. Aryan Nations was founded and based in Idaho, and there are numerous splinter groups in the boonies all the time. They are located here mostly because the northwest is viewed as kind of a "holy land" and the last part of "true" America. |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| soupsandwich wrote: |
| Quote: |
Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
I find it amazing that since very few, if any, black Americans live in that area of the country...and the people associated with these groups are domintatley white, it calls for "white supremeist" tags.
soupsandwich |
White supremacists generally have a thing against any "colored person" including Jews, Asians, Hispanics, Catholics and Communists. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| soupsandwich wrote: |
| Quote: |
Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
I find it amazing that since very few, if any, black Americans live in that area of the country...and the people associated with these groups are domintatley white, it calls for "white supremeist" tags.
soupsandwich |
Libertarians are also overwhelmingly white, and many have gone on the record that the civil rights bill was a government overstep, many states rightists, a substrian of libertarianism, believe that the state is more likely to pass discriminatory legislation, etc. Its safe to say that they have some things in common. |
The fact that the majority is white (an assumption on your part, although I'm willing to believe it, since white people are the majority demographic period) is completely irrelevant; unless you can establish that this in and of itself amounts to racism... You can't. As for the Civil Rights Bill, it absolutely infringes on personal liberties (freedom of association). If a bunch of racists (non-whites included) want to refuse service to someone based on skin color, it's obviously distasteful, but it's their right (as long as it's their own property). I would boycott such an establishment and encourage others to do so, but not ask for government intervention.
| Quote: |
| Also visitorq if this government is just a conspiracy of the elite, than what about libertarianism..... look who's bankrolling it, are the koch brothers any less elite than, well anybody? |
The Koch brothers are not bankrolling libertarianism as a whole. That's a ridiculous notion. They donate some money to some think tanks (which does not automatically make them illegit), but libertarianism is by and large a grass root movement. People like Ron Paul are not beholden to any financiers, and most people who espouse it make their own money. This is a stark contrast with statists, who are entirely dependent on other peoples' money (esp. the tax payer, who they treat as milk cows). |
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RangerMcGreggor
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Location: Somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Extremists finding fertile ground in Northwest US |
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| visitorq wrote: |
How is it not talking about libertarians?? Did you read the exact section I quoted? People (ie. whackos it seems to infer) who believe there's a one world government agenda are "so-called" patriots? It specifically says they are "included" in the radical right wing groups... and they're lumped right in with neo-Nazis (who apparently only want to live in places with a libertarian streak, since they're apparently equivalent ). Anyway, it seems like about as biased as an article can get, but feel free to correct me again if I've misread anything... |
Wait.. so liberatarians believe those things now? How does that make it about liberatarians? As someone from the northwest, we have plenty of liberatarian groups and they are not thrown into the same mix as the groups the article is talking about. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| soupsandwich wrote: |
| Quote: |
Sounds like a libertarian bashing article. Associating anti-government activity (which is good and righteous) with racism and neo-Nazis - gee, how original
There is absolutely nothing right-wing about libertarianism. Only idiots and completely ignorant fools believe that. Obama is far more "right wing" and fascist than the above described anti-government types could ever be. |
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
I find it amazing that since very few, if any, black Americans live in that area of the country...and the people associated with these groups are domintatley white, it calls for "white supremeist" tags.
soupsandwich |
Libertarians are also overwhelmingly white, and many have gone on the record that the civil rights bill was a government overstep, many states rightists, a substrian of libertarianism, believe that the state is more likely to pass discriminatory legislation, etc. Its safe to say that they have some things in common. |
The fact that the majority is white (an assumption on your part, although I'm willing to believe it, since white people are the majority demographic period) is completely irrelevant; unless you can establish that this in and of itself amounts to racism... You can't. As for the Civil Rights Bill, it absolutely infringes on personal liberties (freedom of association). If a bunch of racists (non-whites included) want to refuse service to someone based on skin color, it's obviously distasteful, but it's their right (as long as it's their own property). I would boycott such an establishment and encourage others to do so, but not ask for government intervention.
| Quote: |
| Also visitorq if this government is just a conspiracy of the elite, than what about libertarianism..... look who's bankrolling it, are the koch brothers any less elite than, well anybody? |
The Koch brothers are not bankrolling libertarianism as a whole. That's a ridiculous notion. They donate some money to some think tanks (which does not automatically make them illegit), but libertarianism is by and large a grass root movement. People like Ron Paul are not beholden to any financiers, and most people who espouse it make their own money. This is a stark contrast with statists, who are entirely dependent on other peoples' money (esp. the tax payer, who they treat as milk cows). |
Obviously not all libertarians are inspired by racist means. Some are, many racist groups use similar rhetoric as libertarians. As much as I dislike libertarians I am not saying they are the same. I just found soups and sandwiches comment funny. Libertarians are overwhelmingly white, not just as a matter of population percentage either, racist groups support state rights, hate the federal government, hate civil rights act, etc. etc. Of course the reasoning is different, like I said I just found the one comment funny. The groups have quite a number of similarities, but I'm not sure how white supremacists feel about voodoo economics and giving the elites, the same ones you rail against, complete reign to do whatever they want. Grassroots, no political movement is truly grassroots for long, if you look at whose funding libertarian causes, and think tanks and candidates, and etc. it's elites, just like any other cause. If it looked like libertarianism had a shot in hell of coming into power they'd give a lot more, but they usually support winners the most. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Obviously not all libertarians are inspired by racist means. Some are, many racist groups use similar rhetoric as libertarians. As much as I dislike libertarians I am not saying they are the same. I just found soups and sandwiches comment funny. Libertarians are overwhelmingly white, not just as a matter of population percentage either, |
How do you know libertarians are "overwhelmingly" white (and not just as a matter of population)? That's a pretty dubious statement- care to try and back it up? I know a fair number of Asian libertarians, a few Indian ones, and I know there are a fair number of black libertarians as well. The fact that the majority are white in the US is because most people in the US are white. I would tend to agree that whites make up a larger percentage (since non-whites tend to live more in big cities, which tend to be more liberal on average than the countryside), but to use the word "overwhelmingly" is a stretch, esp. without any hard data to back it up. I also feel like a lot more non-whites are being converted over, esp. once they realize that having a non-white president (selected by the exact same globalist crooks who run the country behind the scenes) in the White House is a total sham and hasn't improved anything.
| Quote: |
| racist groups support state rights, hate the federal government, hate civil rights act, etc. etc. Of course the reasoning is different, like I said I just found the one comment funny. The groups have quite a number of similarities, but I'm not sure how white supremacists feel about voodoo economics and giving the elites, the same ones you rail against, complete reign to do whatever they want. Grassroots, no political movement is truly grassroots for long, if you look at whose funding libertarian causes, and think tanks and candidates, and etc. it's elites, just like any other cause. If it looked like libertarianism had a shot in hell of coming into power they'd give a lot more, but they usually support winners the most. |
I'm not sure where you're coming from here either. Most racist groups I've ever heard of are statist in nature. Anyone who admires Hitler (a dictator), as nearly all white supremacist groups do, has nothing in common with libertarianism. Some white supremacists take on the Confederate theme (waving the stars and bars around like a fashion statement) and may espouse states' rights, but they're basically a bunch of hypocrites, and actually pro-government, anti-freedom types dressed up in a little bit of libertarian rhetoric (they'd no doubt love a strong central government, just as long as the ruler were a white man; they only dislike the federal government because of the history of Lincoln emancipating the slaves). Beyond that it's all a complete shame. Basically a libertarian would never, ever espouse slavery or coercion in any form (it's the complete antithesis of everything libertarian stands for). Therefore any comparison between libertarians and right-wing racist groups is a joke. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Obviously not all libertarians are inspired by racist means. Some are, many racist groups use similar rhetoric as libertarians. As much as I dislike libertarians I am not saying they are the same. I just found soups and sandwiches comment funny. Libertarians are overwhelmingly white, not just as a matter of population percentage either, |
How do you know libertarians are "overwhelmingly" white (and not just as a matter of population)? That's a pretty dubious statement- care to try and back it up? I know a fair number of Asian libertarians, a few Indian ones, and I know there are a fair number of black libertarians as well. The fact that the majority are white in the US is because most people in the US are white. I would tend to agree that whites make up a larger percentage (since non-whites tend to live more in big cities, which tend to be more liberal on average than the countryside), but to use the word "overwhelmingly" is a stretch, esp. without any hard data to back it up. I also feel like a lot more non-whites are being converted over, esp. once they realize that having a non-white president (selected by the exact same globalist crooks who run the country behind the scenes) in the White House is a total sham and hasn't improved anything.
| Quote: |
| racist groups support state rights, hate the federal government, hate civil rights act, etc. etc. Of course the reasoning is different, like I said I just found the one comment funny. The groups have quite a number of similarities, but I'm not sure how white supremacists feel about voodoo economics and giving the elites, the same ones you rail against, complete reign to do whatever they want. Grassroots, no political movement is truly grassroots for long, if you look at whose funding libertarian causes, and think tanks and candidates, and etc. it's elites, just like any other cause. If it looked like libertarianism had a shot in hell of coming into power they'd give a lot more, but they usually support winners the most. |
I'm not sure where you're coming from here either. Most racist groups I've ever heard of are statist in nature. Anyone who admires Hitler (a dictator), as nearly all white supremacist groups do, has nothing in common with libertarianism. Some white supremacists take on the Confederate theme (waving the stars and bars around like a fashion statement) and may espouse states' rights, but they're basically a bunch of hypocrites, and actually pro-government, anti-freedom types dressed up in a little bit of libertarian rhetoric (they'd no doubt love a strong central government, just as long as the ruler were a white man; they only dislike the federal government because of the history of Lincoln emancipating the slaves). Beyond that it's all a complete shame. Basically a libertarian would never, ever espouse slavery or coercion in any form (it's the complete antithesis of everything libertarian stands for). Therefore any comparison between libertarians and right-wing racist groups is a joke. |
Yeah, I know, it was a joke. I said so, I said that I found that one comment funny, because it could describe libertarians as well. I even said that I didn't think they were the same, just the same superficially.
I tried to find a source about demographics of libertarians, but couldn't find anything. Also I suppose what you set the bar at for being a libertarian, is the tea party libertarian? Certainly it is the most popular manifestation of libertarian ideas. There is a strong undercurrent of racism in the tea party, but I suspect you wouldn't number them as true believers anyways. I'll leave the issue of libertarian demographics alone as I have no proof, but you have no proof to the counter so like I said, I'll just leave it be. |
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