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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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 Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: Is Sabotage a reality? |
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Hi Folks:
I am reposting this in the hopes of getting some feedback from more experienced people.
"......
Given the xenophobic tendencies of Korean culture over the years, how might one address this in an interview or in considering a position? I know people talk about contacting a current or recent teacher and that seems simple enough. OTOH it would be really nice to have a dialogue about exactly this sort of situation-- real or imagined. I think its these sorts of insights that would help first-timers (like myself). Thoughts? Comments?
....."
So far, in the threads that I have been able to find, the possibility of school management and co-teacher literally sabotaging a foreign teacher's efforts is only addressed in very oblique terms. For instance, there have been references to rural placements ---moreso in middle and southern portion of the country----where the foreign teacher seems to be suffered as a "necessary evil" foisted on the institution by outside policy.
Could someone give some insights into this situation?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Is Sabotage a reality? |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Hi Folks:
I am reposting this in the hopes of getting some feedback from more experienced people.
"......
Given the xenophobic tendencies of Korean culture over the years, how might one address this in an interview or in considering a position? I know people talk about contacting a current or recent teacher and that seems simple enough. OTOH it would be really nice to have a dialogue about exactly this sort of situation-- real or imagined. I think its these sorts of insights that would help first-timers (like myself). Thoughts? Comments?
....."
So far, in the threads that I have been able to find, the possibility of school management and co-teacher literally sabotaging a foreign teacher's efforts is only addressed in very oblique terms. For instance, there have been references to rural placements ---moreso in middle and southern portion of the country----where the foreign teacher seems to be suffered as a "necessary evil" foisted on the institution by outside policy.
Could someone give some insights into this situation?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Lets see...
1- How is a rural placement sabotaging a foreign teachers efforts? Placement is the right of the organisation (EPIK) and is usually a choice by the teacher (he or she can turn the placement down and look for another position)
2- The middle and southern portion of the country..you mean OUTSIDE OF SEOUL and well outside of the Capital exposure to foreigners is lower or newer. That is a fact, how is that sabotaging a teachers efforts?
Now, instead of posing these open ended questions that are also loaded (the use of sabotage, necessary evil)...why not propose solutions or discuss more contrete issues like say:
What tips do you have for adapting when you get placed in a rural location?
or
How do you foreigners living in more secluded area deal with being one of the few foreigners there?
Othwerise what you will get is a rant thread...then again it really does depend what you are looking for here!
Good luck and watch out for the anti-foreigner land mines out there! |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry -- I am confused about what you are asking.
What do you mean by "sabotage?" Do you mean setting someone up to fail? Undercutting one's authority in the classroom? Making one look like a fool in front of students/peers/administration? Shooting down one's ideas?
Some of the time, people bring problems on themselves. Some of the time, the problems are caused entirely by others. Most of the time, it is a combination of the two, and since none of us can control others, the only way to exert control over the situation is to control one's self.
Of the problems I have heard about going from bad to worse, most of the time, the reason for the downslide was the person's reaction. There are ways to solve problems, and there are ways to feed them so they grow to near-insurmountable dimensions.
I would say that outright "sabotage" by anyone (co-workers, admin, students, etc) is very rare. Such behavior takes energy, time, and passion on the part of that person's "enemy" -- and most of the time, the person isn't worth all that trouble.
People sabotage themselves. You needn't worry about it, nor discuss it with your potential bosses in a potential interview...because doing so is a sure way to sabotage yourself. It demonstrates a victim mentality, and an unwillingness to take responsibility for the problems in one's life -- neither of which is especially helpful in an employee.
Just my 20 won.... |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
I'm sorry -- I am confused about what you are asking.
What do you mean by "sabotage?" Do you mean setting someone up to fail? Undercutting one's authority in the classroom? Making one look like a fool in front of students/peers/administration? Shooting down one's ideas?
Some of the time, people bring problems on themselves. Some of the time, the problems are caused entirely by others. Most of the time, it is a combination of the two, and since none of us can control others, the only way to exert control over the situation is to control one's self.
Of the problems I have heard about going from bad to worse, most of the time, the reason for the downslide was the person's reaction. There are ways to solve problems, and there are ways to feed them so they grow to near-insurmountable dimensions.
I would say that outright "sabotage" by anyone (co-workers, admin, students, etc) is very rare. Such behavior takes energy, time, and passion on the part of that person's "enemy" -- and most of the time, the person isn't worth all that trouble.
People sabotage themselves. You needn't worry about it, nor discuss it with your potential bosses in a potential interview...because doing so is a sure way to sabotage yourself. It demonstrates a victim mentality, and an unwillingness to take responsibility for the problems in one's life -- neither of which is especially helpful in an employee.
Just my 20 won.... |
Agreed |
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Ramen
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:51 am Post subject: |
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like i always say, roll the dice and pray that you don't crap out. life is an adventure.  |
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NohopeSeriously
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Life itself is a gigantic scheme of sabotaging other people's minds. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| thegadfly wrote: |
I'm sorry -- I am confused about what you are asking.
What do you mean by "sabotage?" Do you mean setting someone up to fail? Undercutting one's authority in the classroom? Making one look like a fool in front of students/peers/administration? Shooting down one's ideas?
Some of the time, people bring problems on themselves. Some of the time, the problems are caused entirely by others. Most of the time, it is a combination of the two, and since none of us can control others, the only way to exert control over the situation is to control one's self.
Of the problems I have heard about going from bad to worse, most of the time, the reason for the downslide was the person's reaction. There are ways to solve problems, and there are ways to feed them so they grow to near-insurmountable dimensions.
I would say that outright "sabotage" by anyone (co-workers, admin, students, etc) is very rare. Such behavior takes energy, time, and passion on the part of that person's "enemy" -- and most of the time, the person isn't worth all that trouble.
People sabotage themselves. You needn't worry about it, nor discuss it with your potential bosses in a potential interview...because doing so is a sure way to sabotage yourself. It demonstrates a victim mentality, and an unwillingness to take responsibility for the problems in one's life -- neither of which is especially helpful in an employee.
Just my 20 won.... |
Thanks, Gadfly; you touched closer to what I had in mind.
What caught me eye was a characterization of the Korean Teacher's Union as "nationalist", which (IMHE) is a euphemism for "protectionist" (see: GEPIK thread on possible reductions).
There have also been a number of references to teachers (IE Korean Nationals) being very much at the bottom of the professions ladder, and I could imagine an individual suffering under the heel of a fellow Korean manager while seeing a foreigner getting perks.
Where Education is concerned I tend to be a very strong team player. I have also seen teachers use "character assasination" and "rumor mongering" to under-cut fellow teachers (which is why I make it a policy to stay out of the teacher's lunchroom as much as possible. 
I know that the Unemployment here in the States is 9.2%....about 14,000,000 people collecting unemployment and another 14% (about 30,000,000) who are under-employed (ie. Part-time or working in a lesser position). That means that about 44m people..... about 25% of the working 191,000,000 people are effected. Even so, when Unemployment was down around 3%---about what it is in Korea right now----people could be pretty protective of their "turf". Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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Ramen
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
I'm sorry -- I am confused about what you are asking.
What do you mean by "sabotage?" Do you mean setting someone up to fail? Undercutting one's authority in the classroom? Making one look like a fool in front of students/peers/administration? Shooting down one's ideas?
Some of the time, people bring problems on themselves. Some of the time, the problems are caused entirely by others. Most of the time, it is a combination of the two, and since none of us can control others, the only way to exert control over the situation is to control one's self.
Of the problems I have heard about going from bad to worse, most of the time, the reason for the downslide was the person's reaction. There are ways to solve problems, and there are ways to feed them so they grow to near-insurmountable dimensions.
I would say that outright "sabotage" by anyone (co-workers, admin, students, etc) is very rare. Such behavior takes energy, time, and passion on the part of that person's "enemy" -- and most of the time, the person isn't worth all that trouble.
People sabotage themselves. You needn't worry about it, nor discuss it with your potential bosses in a potential interview...because doing so is a sure way to sabotage yourself. It demonstrates a victim mentality, and an unwillingness to take responsibility for the problems in one's life -- neither of which is especially helpful in an employee.
Just my 20 won.... |
Thanks, Gadfly; you touched closer to what I had in mind.
What caught me eye was a characterization of the Korean Teacher's Union as "nationalist", which (IMHE) is a euphemism for "protectionist" (see: GEPIK thread on possible reductions).
There have also been a number of references to teachers (IE Korean Nationals) being very much at the bottom of the professions ladder, and I could imagine an individual suffering under the heel of a fellow Korean manager while seeing a foreigner getting perks.
Where Education is concerned I tend to be a very strong team player. I have also seen teachers use "character assasination" and "rumor mongering" to under-cut fellow teachers (which is why I make it a policy to stay out of the teacher's lunchroom as much as possible.
I know that the Unemployment here in the States is 9.2%....about 14,000,000 people collecting unemployment and another 14% (about 30,000,000) who are under-employed (ie. Part-time or working in a lesser position). That means that about 44m people..... about 25% of the working 191,000,000 people are effected. Even so, when Unemployment was down around 3%---about what it is in Korea right now----people could be pretty protective of their "turf". Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
yes to that thought.
and i am sure you are very strong team player, but try to join in on lunches with your co-workers. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Ramen wrote: |
| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| thegadfly wrote: |
I'm sorry -- I am confused about what you are asking.
What do you mean by "sabotage?" Do you mean setting someone up to fail? Undercutting one's authority in the classroom? Making one look like a fool in front of students/peers/administration? Shooting down one's ideas?
Some of the time, people bring problems on themselves. Some of the time, the problems are caused entirely by others. Most of the time, it is a combination of the two, and since none of us can control others, the only way to exert control over the situation is to control one's self.
Of the problems I have heard about going from bad to worse, most of the time, the reason for the downslide was the person's reaction. There are ways to solve problems, and there are ways to feed them so they grow to near-insurmountable dimensions.
I would say that outright "sabotage" by anyone (co-workers, admin, students, etc) is very rare. Such behavior takes energy, time, and passion on the part of that person's "enemy" -- and most of the time, the person isn't worth all that trouble.
People sabotage themselves. You needn't worry about it, nor discuss it with your potential bosses in a potential interview...because doing so is a sure way to sabotage yourself. It demonstrates a victim mentality, and an unwillingness to take responsibility for the problems in one's life -- neither of which is especially helpful in an employee.
Just my 20 won.... |
Thanks, Gadfly; you touched closer to what I had in mind.
What caught me eye was a characterization of the Korean Teacher's Union as "nationalist", which (IMHE) is a euphemism for "protectionist" (see: GEPIK thread on possible reductions).
There have also been a number of references to teachers (IE Korean Nationals) being very much at the bottom of the professions ladder, and I could imagine an individual suffering under the heel of a fellow Korean manager while seeing a foreigner getting perks.
Where Education is concerned I tend to be a very strong team player. I have also seen teachers use "character assasination" and "rumor mongering" to under-cut fellow teachers (which is why I make it a policy to stay out of the teacher's lunchroom as much as possible.
I know that the Unemployment here in the States is 9.2%....about 14,000,000 people collecting unemployment and another 14% (about 30,000,000) who are under-employed (ie. Part-time or working in a lesser position). That means that about 44m people..... about 25% of the working 191,000,000 people are effected. Even so, when Unemployment was down around 3%---about what it is in Korea right now----people could be pretty protective of their "turf". Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
yes to that thought.
and i am sure you are very strong team player, but try to join in on lunches with your co-workers. |
Wow...agreeing with Ramen! 
Ah well, when he's right, he's right -- definitely DO join in on the lunches with co-workers...to skip any group meal, or even declining offers of food, can make one seem stand-offish or unfriendly.
Take a cookie, piece of dduk, fragment of pizza, or scrap of chicken if offered to you, and bring in something to share with the office every once in a while (and be sure to bring enough for the secretaries/janitors/other folks that work there besides the teachers). Once every couple of months is plenty, but doing it early in your time somewhere will be the best 5,000 won you can spend. Dduk-bokki is a good choice, as is kim bap -- you needn't spring for pizzas or fried chicken for everyone (in fact, the much cheaper Korean snacks go over BETTER than chicken and pizza -- standing with toothpicks around a messy bowl of dduk-bokki makes for a MUCH friendlier situation...).
As for the jealousy that might spring up -- yeah, some Korean teachers DO get treated worse than the foreign teachers at the same school, and a portion of them DO have a chip on their shoulders...but if you take steps to avoid dislodging that chip, you should be fine.
One of the best ways is to be seen to be doing your job. If you seem to be working hard, and seem to be a team player (see above -- seriously, a few cookies or some dduk will buy you MANY kilometers of clearer road), even disgruntled Korean workers will afford you a modicum of respect. Maybe you do not want to be seen as "one of the good ones," but I personally feel it is better than being perceived as being on the other side of that line.
I am not particularly good at office politics -- I just do my job to the best of my ability, and happen to like food in all its forms, so I very rarely turn down ANYTHING that is offered to me. I also know enough to stop by the bakery and bring in some muffins or rolls once in a while (and once in your first week). That has been more than sufficient to never be on the receiving end of the type of "sabotage" to which you seem to refer...but then, this type of behavior is not a KOREAN thing, it is a people thing...I have had more active dislike and backstabbing levelled at me when I taught in the US.
I find situations in Korea MUCH easier to read than in the US -- you get a good idea of who is gunning for you pretty quickly here -- at least, I do. It is also easier to turn it aside, or sway the person to YOUR side -- at least, it has been for me.
Whatever other faults you may have, Bruce, you seem sincere in your caring about the profession of teaching, and you seem to take the responsibilities seriously -- I think those traits alone will "take the edges" off any other mistakes you may make whilst you are here.
In general, the stereotype that leads to "sabotage" is the playboy foreign slacker -- the bingo and hangman playing backpacker-teacher -- who seems to only care about paychecks, drinking, and womanizing. You haven't come across as any of those things, so while not bullet-proof, I think you are pretty safe.
Hope that helps. |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Yes indeedy.... that helps a lot. Of course, here it would be DUNKIN DONUTS ("America runs on Dunkin" as the jingle goes). How is the Korean sweet-tooth? The rice treats that get passed around for CHUSEOK don't seem as over-whelmingly sweet as some of our domestic sweets. I also remember Chinese folks returning to the PRC having suitcases absolutely PACKED with candies. Same for Korea?
BTW: There is also something worth sharing though I am concerned that in this venue it may not come across exactly right, though it is heartfelt.
Working with veterans for 15 years allowed me to deal very often with street people and the street person mentality. As a veteran I know that "for the Grace of God..." etc etc, right? What I learned from the start is that people who live on the street learn a whole set of compensatory behaviors that help them survive. Not all of these behaviors and values are very attractive and many folks who worked for the VA were pretty judgemental about these vets who lived on the street.
The reason that I mention this is that in many ways I think the Korean culture developed these sorts of survivalist behaviors and they are not all pretty. But for the occassions that I have crossed paths with Korean nationals I have found that it lets me reach-out in a spirit of mutual respect and that seems to have served me pretty well. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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litebear
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Hope you don't mind me asking Bruce, how is the document gathering/job search going? Any further forward. (If you feel this is too far off-topic, just say so, no problem.) |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
Yes indeedy.... that helps a lot. Of course, here it would be DUNKIN DONUTS ("America runs on Dunkin" as the jingle goes). How is the Korean sweet-tooth? The rice treats that get passed around for CHUSEOK don't seem as over-whelmingly sweet as some of our domestic sweets. I also remember Chinese folks returning to the PRC having suitcases absolutely PACKED with candies. Same for Korea?
BTW: There is also something worth sharing though I am concerned that in this venue it may not come across exactly right, though it is heartfelt.
Working with veterans for 15 years allowed me to deal very often with street people and the street person mentality. As a veteran I know that "for the Grace of God..." etc etc, right? What I learned from the start is that people who live on the street learn a whole set of compensatory behaviors that help them survive. Not all of these behaviors and values are very attractive and many folks who worked for the VA were pretty judgemental about these vets who lived on the street.
The reason that I mention this is that in many ways I think the Korean culture developed these sorts of survivalist behaviors and they are not all pretty. But for the occassions that I have crossed paths with Korean nationals I have found that it lets me reach-out in a spirit of mutual respect and that seems to have served me pretty well. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
Wow, Bruce -- just wow! This comes across as terribly condescending and judgmental. Although I haven't read EVERYTHING you have posted, this is the first thing that I HAVE read from you that sounds racist.
I honestly have no clue as to what "Korean" behavior you ascribe to being "survivalist behavior," akin to the "street person mentality." I do know, however, that phrasing your "observations" in such a way is pretty sure to offend -- heck *I* am offended (more for coming down on your side of things in several posts than for anything else. Lots of folks are racist -- I just usually try to avoid showing any sort of support for those folks).
Good luck in Korea -- I suddenly feel you are going to need a lot more of it than I previously thought.  |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Damn.... I just knew that was not going to come across right. Sorry about that.
I was hoping to draw a parallel between past experiences and the present. I think this is going to be one of those comments where the more I say the worse its gonna get, so I think I'll leave well enough alone, yes? FWIW, it came from a good place. As far as "Racism" or Racist" goes.... I've found that intelligent people can talk about Race and Cultures without being restained or bound by a fixed set of beliefs.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Last edited by Bruce W Sims on Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| litebear wrote: |
| Hope you don't mind me asking Bruce, how is the document gathering/job search going? Any further forward. (If you feel this is too far off-topic, just say so, no problem.) |
No....its very much coming down to a wait and see sort of situation. I was thrown a curve the other day when someone reported that Poly is asking for two copies of the applicant's degree instead of the usual one. Up until then I was pretty well fixed for everything.
The responses are likewise pretty much wait and see. C'est Bon.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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litebear
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Holland
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
| litebear wrote: |
| Hope you don't mind me asking Bruce, how is the document gathering/job search going? Any further forward. (If you feel this is too far off-topic, just say so, no problem.) |
No....its very much coming down to a wait and see sort of situation. I was thrown a curve the other day when someone reported that Poly is asking for two copies of the applicant's degree instead of the usual one. Up until then I was pretty well fixed for everything.
The responses are likewise pretty much wait and see. C'est Bon.
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
You need two apostilled degrees for a Poly now? I never knew that. You have everything else though by the sounds of things which is good. |
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