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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: Is trust and honesty a bigger problem in Korea than . . . |
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some other countries you know of?
I wasn't sure whether to post this under the Job Forum or the General Forum, but it seems to be a very real issue for readers on both.
This article in the Korea Herald helps to understand a lot about how they can do it with such sincerity and a guilt-free conscience. Obviously, I don't mean all Koreans, but it is discussing certain significant cultural tendencies here.
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110802000634 |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Is trust and honesty a bigger problem in Korea than . . |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
some other countries you know of?
I wasn't sure whether to post this under the Job Forum or the General Forum, but it seems to be a very real issue for readers on both.
This article in the Korea Herald helps to understand a lot about how they can do it with such sincerity and a guilt-free conscience. Obviously, I don't mean all Koreans, but it is discussing certain significant cultural tendencies here.
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20110802000634 |
There is a very common Human dynamic that allows for exactly the sorts of behaviors reported in the article. In the case of the Koreans mentioned in the article the motives relate to Korea's fear of outsiders. This need not always be the case. Any time someone is identified as "different" it is a very small second step to also identify that person as "less". Around the world People of Color, women, economically disadvantaged, elderly and sick are commonly marginalized as being somehow less worthy of regard. Once this happens it becomes very easy to believe that crimes and injuries done to "normal people" are not really crimes or injuries when done to these unfortunates.
In areas such as Korea--- or Eastern Europe for that matter--- where outsiders have repeatedly run rough-shod over the country xenophobia comes easily to the population. Honestly, I really don't think that these people see what they are doing as "wrong" when they give false testimony about another person. After all, in their book I suspect they just think they are doing whats necessary to get their needs met in a very "dangerous" world, right? Afterall, look how often we see threads on this forum about how Koreans have lied about employment situations and their agreements, yes?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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Bruce W Sims
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Illinois; USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Good Hagwon? |
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| Warhammer820 wrote: |
| I really want to go to Korea to save money so that I can teach in Thailand without struggling financially my first year there. The thing that is stopping me is the horror stories about Hagwons. I don't want to get screwed out of money so that is why I am hesitant to go to Korea. If i get into trouble I don't know anyone that could help me. I have heard about trying to contact teachers at hagwons to ask them about their job through e-mail, but what if they won't tell the truth if their Hagwon is bad for fear of losing their job. So i guess my question is, how common are bad Hagwons? |
That seems to be the "64 Thousand Dollar Question".
To read the threads here, working in Korea as a foreign teacher is fraught with all sorts of dangers. The people don't take well to strangers, Korean teachers feel threatened, private schools don't meet their various responsibilities and then conduct themselves in fraudulent ways with their employees. Sheesh. 
Problem is that there does not seem to be any good way to get around this "mine field", if a person wants to teach in Korea. Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| In areas such as Korea--- or Eastern Europe for that matter--- where outsiders have repeatedly run rough-shod over the country xenophobia comes easily to the population. |
From someone who has been to almost every country in Eastern Europe, this comparison is laughable. Somewhat similar modern histories will not necessarily represent on the ground reality, and it certainly doesn't here. They actually distinguish between "outsiders" there, as it's still Europe, not the former hermit kingdom.
If the xenophobic meter read 1-100, I'd rank most EE countries around a 5 and put Korea at about a 91. Serbia would be the highest ranked in EE. Now, if we're talking about their distrust of Russians (not counting Serbia, Bulgaria, and a couple others), it's a different story. Likewise if the discussion includes trusting women to be honest about their relationship status. Seems about the same in that respect.
Trying to judge varying degrees of honesty and trustworthiness in a society is generally pointless though. The bad seeds have a reputation for a reason... |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Good Hagwon? |
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| Bruce W Sims wrote: |
. . . That seems to be the "64 Thousand Dollar Question".
To read the threads here, working in Korea as a foreign teacher is fraught with all sorts of dangers. The people don't take well to strangers, Korean teachers feel threatened, private schools don't meet their various responsibilities and then conduct themselves in fraudulent ways with their employees. Sheesh.
Problem is that there does not seem to be any good way to get around this "mine field", if a person wants to teach in Korea. Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce |
There are some institutions that help the foreign teacher who is getting keel-hauled by corrupt employers. The Ministry of Labor will make them pay you your severance when they refuse to do so. I've seen it happen.
And the officials at the M. of Labor know a lot about Korean lying, so they aren't taken in by increadibly sincere liars who want them to ignore the contract and the law.
One of the big problems is that your housing is tied to your job usually, so you have to have somewhere to live if you're not working or if you're waiting the 14 days after the contract ends to file against the employer. But I did read in the Korea Times recently that starting Aug. 1st (just passed) Korean law would require employers to set aside money for severance every month and pay it immediately at the end of the contract. You can possibly confirm that with a search at the Korea Times.
Also, there is the Korean Legal Aid Corporation which is a government funded entity that serves the needs of people who can't afford expensive lawyers. While it is intended primarily for Koreans, foreign teachers also are covered and easily meet their income requirements for free services.
Beginning this month, there will be a free once-a-week consultation available with a KLAC attorney at the Itaewon branch of the Global Center for Foreigners. This should be better than the free consultations at the main office downtown because the ones downtown are volunteer lawyers from private firms who (some would say) are primarily there to drum up business for their expensive private firms. KLAC representation, on the other hand, is either cheap or free. That is to say, that in addition to providing a free consultation, they can also represent you in court either for free or inexpensively.
Good to know. You're welcome (in advance ;o->) |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| jfromtheway wrote: |
. . .Trying to judge varying degrees of honesty and trustworthiness in a society is generally pointless though. The bad seeds have a reputation for a reason... |
Not sure if you read the article, but it provided a lot of comparative statistical data to make such comparative differences pretty obvious. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Here's the article I was talking about that was in the Korean Times recently:
All migrant workers entitled to severance pay
By Kim Rahn
All firms hiring foreign workers will have to set aside money on a monthly basis to provide severance pay to the employee when they complete the contract and leave the country.
The Ministry of Employment and Labor Tuesday said that the system will be applicable to all workplaces starting in August. The Cabinet approved an enforcement decree of the law governing the employment of foreign workers earlier in the day.
The policy, called departure guarantee insurance, is designed to prevent employers from withholding severance pay when migrant workers must leave the country as their visas expire. So far, the rule has been applied to workplaces with at least five employees.
�Foreign workers must leave Korea when their permitted working period ends, so their severance pay should be paid before departure. But it happens sometimes that employers have difficulty preparing the money and workers leave the country without receiving it,� a ministry official said.
�It is difficult for such workers to get the money through lawsuits. So we decided to expand the guarantee system to all workplaces,� the official said.
For employees working for at least a year, employers are obliged to pay severance equivalent to a month�s wages. So, according to the system, employers should deposit money equivalent to one-12th or 8.3 percent of a worker�s monthly salary to the agency in charge of the guarantee insurance, every month. After working one year the worker then can receive the accumulated money as severance pay.
Samsung Fire and Marine Insurance is currently the insurance managing agency.
For foreign workers hired before Aug. 1, employers aren�t required to deposit the amounts monthly but should follow the governing rule.
[email protected]
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/06/205_89352.html |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Lets cut to the chase and drop the pretense of citing an "article"... 
Korea is the worst place and is filled with liars, xenophobic people who hate us.
This will save everyone a lot of time and a lot of postings. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Lets cut to the chase and drop the pretense of citing an "article"...
Korea is the worst place and is filled with liars, xenophobic people who hate us.
This will save everyone a lot of time and a lot of postings. |
Some people prefer a statistical analysis over anecdotal horror stories though the anecdotes can certainly be more entertaining in a horror movie sort of way.  |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| jfromtheway wrote: |
. . .Trying to judge varying degrees of honesty and trustworthiness in a society is generally pointless though. The bad seeds have a reputation for a reason... |
Not sure if you read the article, but it provided a lot of comparative statistical data to make such comparative differences pretty obvious. |
I hadn't read it. Someone mentioned it to me earlier today, but I had an untrustworthy lady friend over when I was writing that, so maybe my mind was on the statement before this one . Reading it now though, good stuff. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:49 am Post subject: |
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I read this earlier this week. It's also a good article and in a similar vein, not sure if someone has posted it here, though. Don't mean to hijack, R.S. Refugee. The total adherence to this kind of fealty may make for an elite fighting group, but it's a strange way to approach life. I'm sure some will apologize away, but give it a go.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/31/world/asia/31marines.html |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:51 pm Post subject: It happens |
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Korea is changing.
When most of us came here it was normal to get ripped off.
My first schools Manager told a new teacher that "you wont get sick pay, yes we lied, but we only put it in the contract because that's what foriegners want to see".
Now, its different. Most Koreans understand the situation, so they dont rip the workers too hard. The Government even understands that we are people and supports non government organisations who look after us.
Can you still be ripped off? Yes, just look at job applications. But who cares, if you still don't know that foriegners are considered subhuman (look, you have hair on your arms, so you must be a monkey.)
Then you are in the wrong country and you aren't ready for Korea.
Sorry, but that stuff still goes on here, I wont apologise for them. Though I still love the country and have the shrug the shoulders syndrome.
Though its not for everyone, so never insult anyone and relax when it hits you. You will either love Korea or it will burn you out. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Patrick
This is the FOURTH TIME/THREAD this article has been posted in the last few days. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I agree with Patrick
This is the FOURTH TIME/THREAD this article has been posted in the last few days. |
Before posting, I did look on the 1st page of the Job and General Forums to see if I could find any reference to this article already being posted, but didn't see one. Guess I must have overlooked the first three postings. Where are they? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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