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grammar question - will in if clause

 
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raewon



Joined: 16 Jun 2009
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:55 pm    Post subject: grammar question - will in if clause Reply with quote
Could someone please help with the following?

If she won't do her work, everyone will quit.

Is it grammatically correct to use "won't" in the above sentence, or does it have to be "doesn't"?

In Practical English Usage (Michael Swan), one case of using will with if is given as follows:

Quote:
"if it is true now that...."

We use will with if when we are saying "if it is true now that..." or "if we know now that..."
If Ann won't be here on Thursday, we'd better cancel the meeting.
If prices will really come down in a few months, I'm not going to buy one now.


Would that case justify the usage of "won't" in the original sentence?

Thanks for any help with this one.
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f12



Joined: 17 Aug 2011
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:42 pm    Post subject: Re: grammar question - will in if clause Reply with quote
[quote="raewon"]Could someone please help with the following?

If she won't do her work, everyone will quit.

Is it grammatically correct to use "won't" in the above sentence, or does it have to be "doesn't"?

In Practical English Usage (Michael Swan), one case of using will with if is given as follows:

Quote:
"if it is true now that...."

We use will with if when we are saying "if it is true now that..." or "if we know now that..."
If Ann won't be here on Thursday, we'd better cancel the meeting.
If prices will really come down in a few months, I'm not going to buy one now.


Would that case justify the usage of "won't" in the original sentence?/quote]

yes
as a general rule, you should not use 'will' in a CONDITIONAL CLAUSE.
there is an exception when you want to express INTENTION , > If she won't do her work, everyone will quit. > this means> if she does not intend to do here work...
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raewon



Joined: 16 Jun 2009
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for your reply. I found some other cases of exceptions as well, including the following:

- to express a polite request
- in case the action in the �if� clause takes place after the one in the main clause

But these two cases aren't related to the sentence in question.

Thank you!
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oldtrafford



Joined: 12 Jan 2011
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
which begs the question is it worth investing all of their time in grammar?!! Interesting example considering I am studying grammar at the moment in terms of its importence in EFL pedagogy.
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some waygug-in



Joined: 25 Jan 2003
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It depends if that grammar study is equally balanced with related conversation and listening, reading and writing. And the language used needs to be level appropriate to the student. (i+1)

I am a firm believer in the need to work on 4 skill areas together, rather than focusing on only 1 or two. I also believe that the material in those 4 areas needs to be related, so the the students are practicing the same vocabulary and grammar structures in their speaking, listening, reading and writing.

This idea that students can just hap-hazardly mess about and still be able to learn something just leads to frustrated students who most likely will blame their teachers for the lack of progress. (some of that blame may be justified) But by and large, the system in Korea is more of a hodge-podge
that teachers are left to try and work with.
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: grammar question - will in if clause Reply with quote
raewon wrote:
Could someone please help with the following?

If she won't do her work, everyone will quit.

Is it grammatically correct to use "won't" in the above sentence, or does it have to be "doesn't"?

In Practical English Usage (Michael Swan), one case of using will with if is given as follows:

Quote:
"if it is true now that...."

We use will with if when we are saying "if it is true now that..." or "if we know now that..."
If Ann won't be here on Thursday, we'd better cancel the meeting.
If prices will really come down in a few months, I'm not going to buy one now.


Would that case justify the usage of "won't" in the original sentence?

Thanks for any help with this one.


Hello Raewon,

Not sure why anyone would think that 'won't' wouldn't be acceptable.
It generates a different dynamic than 'doesn't'...as already mentioned...intention(ability is implied)
With 'doesn't' neither intention or ability need be implied.
At any rate, it is prescriptively correct - grammatically.

If they won't do it, he won't either.
This type of structure is more common than the one you are using...a sort of parallel conditional...with any of the modals being easily substituted.
If they shouldn't do it, he shouldn't either.

There is great flexibility of modals in that conditional structure...for both dependent and independent clauses.(conditional and main)

Hope this is helpful.
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oldtrafford



Joined: 12 Jan 2011
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It depends if that grammar study is equally balanced with related conversation and listening, reading and writing. And the language used needs to be level appropriate to the student. (i+1)

I am a firm believer in the need to work on 4 skill areas together, rather than focusing on only 1 or two. I also believe that the material in those 4 areas needs to be related, so the the students are practicing the same vocabulary and grammar structures in their speaking, listening, reading and writing.

This idea that students can just hap-hazardly mess about and still be able to learn something just leads to frustrated students who most likely will blame their teachers for the lack of progress. (some of that blame may be justified) But by and large, the system in Korea is more of a hodge-podge
that teachers are left to try and work with.


I couldn't agree more!
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nathanrutledge



Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
oldtrafford wrote:
It depends if that grammar study is equally balanced with related conversation and listening, reading and writing. And the language used needs to be level appropriate to the student. (i+1)

I am a firm believer in the need to work on 4 skill areas together, rather than focusing on only 1 or two. I also believe that the material in those 4 areas needs to be related, so the the students are practicing the same vocabulary and grammar structures in their speaking, listening, reading and writing.

This idea that students can just hap-hazardly mess about and still be able to learn something just leads to frustrated students who most likely will blame their teachers for the lack of progress. (some of that blame may be justified) But by and large, the system in Korea is more of a hodge-podge
that teachers are left to try and work with.


I couldn't agree more!


I'm going to turn this about 20 degrees. I agree that the 4 skills should be learned together - BUT, I'm of the belief that you need more focus on single areas at certain times. Humans naturally learn language by listening, speaking, reading, and writing - in that order. It's a waste of time to devote equal energy to all four at the same time, and it's a waste of energy to devote any appreciable amount of energy on reading and writing if listening and speaking aren't in place. Of course, it all depends on ages as well - if you start teaching language to kids who are in the pre-k/kindergarten range, they're in that prime language learning time and will pick it up really quickly. But the further away from that you get, the larger the spacing and timing should be.

OP, I agree with the others - will not is intention. you want intention, use will/will not.
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