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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:42 am Post subject: Grammar Question |
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The comparative (me versus I after than)
In my linguistics book I read the following:
If a pronoun follows than, it tends to change from subject to object form (i.e. a subject form standing a lone seems a bit awkward).
"She has more books than me" (not awkward) versus "She has more books than me."
I can understand that the former doesn't sound awkward, but the latter does. This is from my linguistics book called the "Grammar Book".
I think the latter is correct, but seems archaic. Would you consider the former incorrect?
The Grammar Book goes on to say that if an auxiliary follows than you, obviously, must use I.
The Oxford book I am using simply states that the use of I is formal whereas the use of me is informal.
A student was asking me about this, and I was saying that I would not tend to use I and that it's awkward. Do you consider the use of me to be grammatically incorrect? |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:57 am Post subject: Re: Grammar Question |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| "She has more books than me" (not awkward) versus "She has more books than me." |
???
Perhaps an " I " in there somewhere?
. |
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Do you mean "She has more books than I?"
That's what I've always thought to be correct, though I would wager that 95% of people say "than me." |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| I think we would say "me" or "I do/have" in these cases. Pretty useless point unless you are preparing for a test. In that case, go with the book. |
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| pedrotaves wrote: |
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/than-I-versus-than-me.aspx
it would appear that it's appropriate to use both, but the subject pronoun is more formal. |
I came to that same conclusion. To most native speakers using I at the end of that sentence is awkward, and I is viewed as more of a subject form, and native speakers would, naturally, use me rather than I. I am going based on my ESL linguistics book. The Oxford text book states that using I is formal and using me is informal. I told my students, that it is more awkward for native speakers to use I unless an auxiliary verb follows the personal pronoun. Both are correct is what I said, but the use of I in that case is not common and is awkward.
I don't know anyone who uses I instead of me in speech. What would you use if you were writing a paper? Do you think professors, nowadays, care if one uses me rather than I? To be on the safe side, I would use I if I am writing a paper. That's what I would tell my students.
What's your take? Thanks for the input. I love these discussions. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| pedrotaves wrote: |
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/than-I-versus-than-me.aspx
it would appear that it's appropriate to use both, but the subject pronoun is more formal. |
I came to that same conclusion. To most native speakers using I at the end of that sentence is awkward, and I is viewed as more of a subject form, and native speakers would, naturally, use me rather than I. I am going based on my ESL linguistics book. The Oxford text book states that using I is formal and using me is informal. I told my students, that it is more awkward for native speakers to use I unless an auxiliary verb follows the personal pronoun. Both are correct is what I said, but the use of I in that case is not common and is awkward.
I don't know anyone who uses I instead of me in speech. What would you use if you were writing a paper? Do you think professors, nowadays, care if one uses me rather than I? To be on the safe side, I would use I if I am writing a paper. That's what I would tell my students.
What's your take? Thanks for the input. I love these discussions. |
Actually...this grammar point has an interesting twist
It isn't just the object or subject pronoun that is controversial.
It is caused from how you define "than".
If you take 'than' as a subordinating conjunction(formal)...then the subject pronoun or object pronoun are ok.
If you take 'than' as a preposition(less formal)...then the object pronoun is ok.
In your example...'than me' is ok because they are taking 'than' to be a preposition.
Both are defensible positions prescriptively; but again, the subordinating conjunction 'than' has more formality on its side.
Also, thinking of 'than' as a conjunction has clarity on its side.
Using a different example.
You like grammar more than I.
You like grammar more than me.
As a conjunction...both of these sentences are correct.
However, they have different meanings.
You like grammar more than I like grammar.( I - subject of dependent clause)
You like grammar more than you like me.(me - object of dependent clause)
If you take 'than' as a preposition in the above example, both sentences would get the object pronoun.
You like grammar more than me.(subject or object?)
This sentence is unclear in its meaning now...best to stick with the conjunction theory...and use the subject or object pronoun accordingly.
Sorry for the long post...clear as mud but it covers the ground.
Anyway, hope it is helpful.
The joys of grammar.  |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You like grammar more than I. |
Again, I feel the need to resolve on "do"  "I do".
It's like in music do re mi fa sol la ti......(where is it?).....(I can't leave without hearing it)....do (ahh, now I can relax).
Being "do" in both cases is just a coincidence. It could be "You have more books than I"......"have". Gotta finish with that "have"  |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You like grammar more than I. |
Again, I feel the need to resolve on "do" "I do".
It's like in music do re mi fa sol la ti......(where is it?).....(I can't leave without hearing it)....do (ahh, now I can relax).
Being "do" in both cases is just a coincidence. It could be "You have more books than I"......"have". Gotta finish with that "have" |
I agree.
In spoken (even written) English, I find the subject pronoun alone is an archaic structure...Shakespearean even.
You have more books than I do.
You have more books than I have.
There are many possible options for this position.
You have more books than I ever will.
You have more books than I care to think about.
etc...
While all are correct, they imply subtle levels of nuance and formality.
All are far more appealing to the ear than the Subject Pronoun alone...at this stage of the grammaring evolution anyway. |
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pedrotaves
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I feel like if this ever comes up in a class it would be better to err on the side of caution and just add the "do" or "have" at the end. It would make more sense to the kids, and the last thing I want to do is try to teach them obscure grammatical conventions before they're fluent. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| pedrotaves wrote: |
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/than-I-versus-than-me.aspx
it would appear that it's appropriate to use both, but the subject pronoun is more formal. |
I came to that same conclusion. To most native speakers using I at the end of that sentence is awkward, and I is viewed as more of a subject form, and native speakers would, naturally, use me rather than I. I am going based on my ESL linguistics book. The Oxford text book states that using I is formal and using me is informal. I told my students, that it is more awkward for native speakers to use I unless an auxiliary verb follows the personal pronoun. Both are correct is what I said, but the use of I in that case is not common and is awkward.
I don't know anyone who uses I instead of me in speech. What would you use if you were writing a paper? Do you think professors, nowadays, care if one uses me rather than I? To be on the safe side, I would use I if I am writing a paper. That's what I would tell my students.
What's your take? Thanks for the input. I love these discussions. |
Actually...this grammar point has an interesting twist
It isn't just the object or subject pronoun that is controversial.
It is caused from how you define "than".
If you take 'than' as a subordinating conjunction(formal)...then the subject pronoun or object pronoun are ok.
If you take 'than' as a preposition(less formal)...then the object pronoun is ok.
In your example...'than me' is ok because they are taking 'than' to be a preposition.
Both are defensible positions prescriptively; but again, the subordinating conjunction 'than' has more formality on its side.
Also, thinking of 'than' as a conjunction has clarity on its side.
Using a different example.
You like grammar more than I.
You like grammar more than me.
As a conjunction...both of these sentences are correct.
However, they have different meanings.
You like grammar more than I like grammar.( I - subject of dependent clause)
You like grammar more than you like me.(me - object of dependent clause)
If you take 'than' as a preposition in the above example, both sentences would get the object pronoun.
You like grammar more than me.(subject or object?)
This sentence is unclear in its meaning now...best to stick with the conjunction theory...and use the subject or object pronoun accordingly.
Sorry for the long post...clear as mud but it covers the ground.
Anyway, hope it is helpful.
The joys of grammar. |
You make a good point, but if I say the following:
You have more experience than I.
You have more experience than me.
then I mean the same thing. What you mentioned above regarding a change of meaning is not necessarily true. If mean that the person likes grammar more than he likes me, then I would put some kind of stress in the sentence towards the end.
After speaking to many native speakers, I found that many of them consider the use of I at the end instead of me to sound awkward. They're not accustomed to it. In a sense, it does sound archaic. I have heard the use of I by itself, but not in a long time. I may have heard it from grammar teachers a long time ago.
The Oxford book states the use of I at the end is formal, but if you add an auxiliary it becomes neutral, and if you replace I with me, then it informal. I don't know if the British tend to use I by itself more than North Americans.
Any readers from the U.K. are more than welcome to comment on this subject. I am just going to go by the book, but I feel that having the pronoun I by itself is awkward. It's grammatically correct, but awkward and according to the book it's the formal way. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| What you mentioned above regarding a change of meaning is not necessarily true. |
Yes...but it is true in the example provided.
The reason for it was to show how 'than' operates on more than one level.
If you read "The Grammar Book" again, you will see they mention the two forms...only they don't give a very good example to demonstrate it..so I provided one.
In your example, they do mean the same thing...and the reason that both the subject pronoun and the object pronoun are correct is not just because of formality...that needs to be made clear.
It is because 'than' can operate as both a conjunction and a preposition.
The subject pronoun alone is awkward. Without a verb or auxiliary in the dependent clause it seems pointless to use 'than' as a conjunction.
And round about the 16th century..many felt the same and began using 'than' as a preposition followed by the object pronoun.
Since that time...the prepositional usage has grown in popularity.
Well...sorry if I repeated myself...just not sure if I was clear enough in the last post.
Hope this is useful. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What you mentioned above regarding a change of meaning is not necessarily true. |
Yes...but it is true in the example provided.
The reason for it was to show how 'than' operates on more than one level.
If you read "The Grammar Book" again, you will see they mention the two forms...only they don't give a very good example to demonstrate it..so I provided one.
In your example, they do mean the same thing...and the reason that both the subject pronoun and the object pronoun are correct is not just because of formality...that needs to be made clear.
It is because 'than' can operate as both a conjunction and a preposition.
The subject pronoun alone is awkward. Without a verb or auxiliary in the dependent clause it seems pointless to use 'than' as a conjunction.
And round about the 16th century..many felt the same and began using 'than' as a preposition followed by the object pronoun.
Since that time...the prepositional usage has grown in popularity.
Well...sorry if I repeated myself...just not sure if I was clear enough in the last post.
Hope this is useful. |
The Grammar book states that than can act as a complementizer or a subject. I have to look up what a complentizer is. I forgot what that means. Anyway, the Oxford book, which I don't like, states that using I instead of me is simply more formal. In a sense, that is true, is it not since you really won't hear the use of I in conversations. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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The Grammar Book is a good book...often quite technical...giving far more information than I ever get to use in a class situation. However, it is nice being prepared for these types of questions when they arise.
If you like it...you may also like Cowan's 'The Teacher's Grammar of English'.
He has some good insights and tends to tone down the technical side while still giving a lot of useful information.
While neither of them is perfect...together they cover most of the grammaring problems that our students face.
A lot of teachers seem to enjoy Swan's 'Practical English Grammar'. It is a good book, as well. For me, I find it a bit simplistic when discussing certain complicated grammar issues.
Lots of good information out there.
This is a nice thread you've started...cheers.
P.S. - A complimentizer is a signal of a complement clause...such as the ones we have been discussing.
Sounds like one of those mint candies you used to find on your pillow when you rented a hotel room. |
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