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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:47 pm Post subject: Public school summer vacations cut short.... |
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That's right. There's slightly less time for summer vacation now. It's because of Korean teacher's getting Saturdays off. Instead of 5 weeks of school being out of session, it's down to about 3 and a half weeks. If your school wants you to do some camps, you're out of luck if you want a home visit. According to the contract, I always got 8 days plus 2 weeks for renewing my contract. Basically, I have to shift those two weeks to winter. But really who wants to go to Canada in winter time? Just letting you know....
Not sure what the standard is for you GEPIK and SMOE folks, but this seems to be the new deal for EPIK. Though I already had Saturdays off. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Same thing at my GEPIK school. I am taking 5 days in summer, 2 weeks of camp and a handful of desk warming days. Then a beautiful 3 week vacation in the winter.
Your school MUST let you use all your days. If you got an extra 2 weeks from renewal, they must let you use them. Be it during the semester or during vacation. They HAVE to let you use them. Do not accept no for an answer. Either less camp or you take off time during exams. Granted, they can choose when to let you use it, but they have to let you use all your days. |
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Richardjw84
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
Your school MUST let you use all your days. If you got an extra 2 weeks from renewal, they must let you use them. Be it during the semester or during vacation. They HAVE to let you use them. Do not accept no for an answer. Either less camp or you take off time during exams. Granted, they can choose when to let you use it, but they have to let you use all your days. |
Is that definitely in the contract?
I've heard people saying that their schools have told them that they won't be able to take all their holiday, but will be paid extra to compensate for that. I made sure I kept enough holiday over winter to be able to take 10 days off in the summer and have no intention of letting them take it off me if I can help it, regardless of compensation.
Edit: I forgot to say that I'm not renewing as I'm in a high school, so moving holiday days to winter isn't an option. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
Same thing at my GEPIK school. I am taking 5 days in summer, 2 weeks of camp and a handful of desk warming days. Then a beautiful 3 week vacation in the winter.
Your school MUST let you use all your days. If you got an extra 2 weeks from renewal, they must let you use them. Be it during the semester or during vacation. They HAVE to let you use them. Do not accept no for an answer. Either less camp or you take off time during exams. Granted, they can choose when to let you use it, but they have to let you use all your days. |
It depends on the contract. All the P.S contracts I've seen have a clause that states something like this. "If the requested vacation period interferes with the smooth operate of the programming of the school or institute the Employer and the Employee shall negotiate an alternate vacation date."
Note the language here...not "MAY negotiate" but "SHALL". In other words this is their out. They can simply claim that it interferes with the smooth operation of the school and then the onus is on you to prove it doesn't. (And before anyone wants to claim that I'm a recruiter or owner in disguise trying to scare people...you might want to check the Contract Sticky thread.). Yeah I've heard of people not being able to get all their days too...although it's never happened to me.
It would be interesting to know what would happen though if someone challenged it...and the school had a "legitimate" claim.
That said MOST P.S schools are likely to honor all your days regardless. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I will still be able to take my vacation time, but will have to shift it to winter. I will prob take some time off during exams too. So, I'll still get my time off. But the teachers not working on Saturday has increased the school year slightly. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Public school summer vacations cut short.... |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| According to the contract, I always got 8 days plus 2 weeks for renewing my contract. Basically, I have to shift those two weeks to winter. |
Sounds like you're on an August to August contract, right?
There are people on February to February contracts who were told that they couldn't take their 2 weeks renewal vacation until the new contract had started. Effectively this meant they had to take it in the summer break, unless their school allowed them to take it during term time. But if it were taken in the summer, then what about their 8 regular vacation days? Taking those as well would give them pretty much the entire summer vacation off.
Not sure what's going to happen, but something obviously has to give somewhere. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Public school summer vacations cut short.... |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| According to the contract, I always got 8 days plus 2 weeks for renewing my contract. Basically, I have to shift those two weeks to winter. |
Sounds like you're on an August to August contract, right?
There are people on February to February contracts who were told that they couldn't take their 2 weeks renewal vacation until the new contract had started. Effectively this meant they had to take it in the summer break, unless their school allowed them to take it during term time. But if it were taken in the summer, then what about their 8 regular vacation days? Taking those as well would give them pretty much the entire summer vacation off.
Not sure what's going to happen, but something obviously has to give somewhere. |
(bolding mine)
This. If the school wants you to do a 2-3 week camp...then taking your vacation is going to interfere with the "smooth operation" of the school.
Guess who wins out in that case. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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From GEPIK:
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2. In the case of renewal of this contract pursuant to the foregoing 1, the
Employee shall be given a fourteen (14) day (weekend and national holidays inclusive) renewal leave which is additional, beyond the yearly paid leave.
Renewal leave must be taken during the vacation periods not conflicting with school schedules within six (6) months from the first date of the renewal contract.
1. The Employee shall be entitled to a paid leave for a total of twenty (20)
working days during the term of the employment. Paid leave shall be divided
and be taken at any time when school is not in session, and must be
approved by the Employer at least fifteen (15) days in advance. The
weekends (Saturdays and Sundays) and the Korean national holidays do not count as vacation days. |
So for renewal leave you have 14 days (more like 10 because it is weekend inclusive) that must be taken during school vacations and within 6 months. So if that renewal leave falls during the summer vacation you get to use it first. Then your additional 20 days that come standard can be applied in the winter and during the spring holiday. Plus maybe a day here or there during exams or something.
It clearly says you are ENTITLED to the leave. So it is your right as an employee. Nothing grey about it.
The EPIK contract is very similar, only it is 18 days and it states 8 in the summer and 10 in the winter. And it also says ENTITLED. So again it is your right as an employee. But here we have a clause that says if it interferes with smooth operation you shall negotiate a different date. Therefore, they HAVE to let you use the time, but it might not be during the vacations. Since 2 weeks plus 8 days might run over the total summer vacation (especially if you have camps) you and your school shall negotiate a different date. For example, during exams, field trips, field day, etc...It defenitely doesn't say anything about losing your entitlement to vacation. If your school is giving you a hard time, contact your coordinator. I can confirm they will back you up on this. It was explicitly explained at the last orientatin I attended (GEPIK)
TUM, you're forgetting the part of the clause where it says you shall negotiate a different date. That is very important.
Edit: Just reread everyone's posts. I'm not sure if anyone was claiming that you would just flat out lose your vacation days. That WILL NOT happen. And if it does it is a contract violation by your school and one that you can fight and win easily. You might not get your full 18 days of vacation during the summer for renewal plus 8. But you will get those days elsewhere. (during the winter vacation, spring vacation, exam time, field trips, field days, etc...) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
F
TUM, you're forgetting the part of the clause where it says you shall negotiate a different date. That is very important.
Edit: Just reread everyone's posts. I'm not sure if anyone was claiming that you would just flat out lose your vacation days. That WILL NOT happen. And if it does it is a contract violation by your school and one that you can fight and win easily. You might not get your full 18 days of vacation during the summer for renewal plus 8. But you will get those days elsewhere. (during the winter vacation, spring vacation, exam time, field trips, field days, etc...) |
I'm not forgetting anything. In theory it sounds great...but I am talking about ACTUAL practice (at least when I worked for Gyeonggi-do)
I know 2 people who lost some of their days of vacation (2) and (3) respectively. When they complained to the co-ordinator (I believe it was Dain Bain at the time) she backed up the school.
What are you going to do?
Sure you could always go to court but over 2 or 3 days of vacation? It would be expensive (you have to hire a Korean lawyer/translator) and there is no guarantee of winning.
Besides which even if you won you would tick off the school enough so that they can and will likely say "Fine you want vacation? Take the rest of the year off. You're fired. Oh and here's 30 days pay in lieu of notice".
Sure you get an extra month's pay. But you lose all those extra months of salary, plus severance PLUS airfare.
And it's all nice and legal (as long as you get the pay...or the notice) under Korean Labor Law.
Before it was a little easier to negotiate due to the limited supply of foreign native English speakers. Now there's a surplus and contracts are getting worse and worse.
Like I said with a public school you generally don't have to worry about it. But it has happened and can happen. And if you annoy them enough they can get rid of you for a month's pay or an extra 30 days. And again totally legally. Not to mention that you may get blacklisted from ever working for a public school again.
Now maybe there's a different co-coordinator there who's pro-foreigner.
But don't bet the farm on it. This ain't Kansas anymore, Toto.
I'm one of the most fervent Korean apologists on this board so when I say something negative about Korea you can generally skip the traditional "grain of salt".
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Public school summer vacations cut short.... |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| b-class rambler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| According to the contract, I always got 8 days plus 2 weeks for renewing my contract. Basically, I have to shift those two weeks to winter. |
Sounds like you're on an August to August contract, right?
There are people on February to February contracts who were told that they couldn't take their 2 weeks renewal vacation until the new contract had started. Effectively this meant they had to take it in the summer break, unless their school allowed them to take it during term time. But if it were taken in the summer, then what about their 8 regular vacation days? Taking those as well would give them pretty much the entire summer vacation off.
Not sure what's going to happen, but something obviously has to give somewhere. |
(bolding mine)
This. If the school wants you to do a 2-3 week camp...then taking your vacation is going to interfere with the "smooth operation" of the school.
Guess who wins out in that case. |
Yes, indeed. When I said that something has to give, I did, of course, mean that something would be either the camp or the NET's vacation, or at least their summer vacation.
Previously, like TUM, I'd have said there was only likely to be one winner in that battle. However, this is a new situation and that's why I'm not so sure how it's going to work out. It's not only the NET's desire for at least 2 weeks off (8 days in the summer is as good as 2 weeks when you factor in that 15th Aug is a national holiday) that would conflict with the previously common 3 week camps. Students, parents and Korean teachers may well have issues over the proportion of the vacation set aside for English camp reaching well over 75% instead of previously 50-60% or less. Certainly, the handful of KTs I've spoken to have all expressed doubts that a 3 week camp would be sensible or doable in just a 4 week summer recess.
Regarding the contract wording, I think people should be wary of reading too much in whether it says "may", "shall", "entitled" or whatever. It's the Korean wording that ultimately counts.
HOWEVER I'm not disagreeing with anyone above here because in the PS contracts I've seen, the Korean does state clearly that the NET will get 2 weeks bonus vacation for re-signing within the first 6 months in the nearest school vacation after their new contract start date. It does say that it has to be at a time when it doesn't interfere with the school lesson schedule, but there is no provision at all for the NET not getting that bonus 2 weeks.
For regular vacation days, the Korean part does specify that of the 18 days available, 8 can be taken in the summer. (I'm talking EPIK contract here, I know other contracts' details may vary.) Again, the contract here contains no provision for the NET not getting those vacation days at all. It does allow for negotiation of alternate dates, which suggests some flexibility (like taking some of the summer 8 days in the winter or some other time) in the case of regular vacation days. But the contract does seem to clearly suggest that they refuse you the chance to use your vacation days at all.
EDIT - I still agree with TUM though, that if the school DID force you to lose vacation days then, in reality there's not a lot you can do without making your renewal unlikely. Hopefully, the effect the shortened vacation has on other aspects of the school besides the NET and English camps will mean schools exercise some flexibility. As I said initially, there's a lot of uncertainty about how this is going to work out and I'd suggest just keeping things as sweet as possible with your school as you're more likely than ever to need to rely a little on their goodwill. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Public school summer vacations cut short.... |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| b-class rambler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| According to the contract, I always got 8 days plus 2 weeks for renewing my contract. Basically, I have to shift those two weeks to winter. |
Sounds like you're on an August to August contract, right?
There are people on February to February contracts who were told that they couldn't take their 2 weeks renewal vacation until the new contract had started. Effectively this meant they had to take it in the summer break, unless their school allowed them to take it during term time. But if it were taken in the summer, then what about their 8 regular vacation days? Taking those as well would give them pretty much the entire summer vacation off.
Not sure what's going to happen, but something obviously has to give somewhere. |
(bolding mine)
This. If the school wants you to do a 2-3 week camp...then taking your vacation is going to interfere with the "smooth operation" of the school.
Guess who wins out in that case. |
Yes, indeed. When I said that something has to give, I did, of course, mean that something would be either the camp or the NET's vacation, or at least their summer vacation.
Previously, like TUM, I'd have said there was only likely to be one winner in that battle. However, this is a new situation and that's why I'm not so sure how it's going to work out. It's not only the NET's desire for at least 2 weeks off (8 days in the summer is as good as 2 weeks when you factor in that 15th Aug is a national holiday) that would conflict with the previously common 3 week camps. Students, parents and Korean teachers may well have issues over the proportion of the vacation set aside for English camp reaching well over 75% instead of previously 50-60% or less. Certainly, the handful of KTs I've spoken to have all expressed doubts that a 3 week camp would be sensible or doable in just a 4 week summer recess.
Regarding the contract wording, I think people should be wary of reading too much in whether it says "may", "shall", "entitled" or whatever. It's the Korean wording that ultimately counts.
HOWEVER I'm not disagreeing with anyone above here because in the PS contracts I've seen, the Korean does state clearly that the NET will get 2 weeks bonus vacation for re-signing within the first 6 months in the nearest school vacation after their new contract start date. It does say that it has to be at a time when it doesn't interfere with the school lesson schedule, but there is no provision at all for the NET not getting that bonus 2 weeks.
For regular vacation days, the Korean part does specify that of the 18 days available, 8 can be taken in the summer. (I'm talking EPIK contract here, I know other contracts' details may vary.) Again, the contract here contains no provision for the NET not getting those vacation days at all. It does allow for negotiation of alternate dates, which suggests some flexibility (like taking some of the summer 8 days in the winter or some other time) in the case of regular vacation days. But the contract does seem to clearly suggest that they refuse you the chance to use your vacation days at all. |
Another thing is...if too much people complain about losing vacation days...they can simply reduce them in the contract to begin with.
When I first worked for a public school they had this option for working extra hours. For every hour you taught overtime (more than 22 classes) you could either take pay OR take 2 hours of unpaid leave for each hour. By the time I finished (3 years later) the time had decreased to 1 hour per hour. There've been other smaller decreases in benefits over the years I've worked in the P.S system...but there's a clear downwards trend. If it continues..vacation time is likely next in line for the chopping block. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Public school summer vacations cut short.... |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| There've been other smaller decreases in benefits over the years I've worked in the P.S system...but there's a clear downwards trend. If it continues..vacation time is likely next in line for the chopping block. |
Yes, agreed. I'm pretty sure they never used to specify the number of days you could take in the summer and winter and that was clearly introduced to stop people who save up all their days until the latter of the two long vacation periods and thereby make a NET vacation vs. English camp conflict unavoidable.
To be honest, I wonder if they might next do away with the 2 weeks renewal bonus vacation as that's increasingly getting more difficult to fit in. What would they offer instead? Maybe odd days to be taken here and there instead, or maybe some kind of monetary compensation....or maybe even nothing at all.  |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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It was explicitity stated to me that they have to let you use ALL your vacation days by the coordinators of my program.
So unless they are just blowing smoke.
TUM, I know your reputation  .  And I usually agree with most things you say.
And you are right that if your school really wants to screw you over you are pretty powerless. But I think by clearly discussing these issues before plans are made for camps, letting your coteachers and administrators know how much vacation you are supposed to get before camps are scheduled and being flexible with using the time during winter vacation instead of summer, spring vacation, school trips, exams and field days, I don't see there being problems for anyone. |
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