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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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 Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: MJ's doc guilty of manslaughter |
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Jackson doctor convicted in star's drug death
LOS ANGELES (AP) � Michael Jackson's doctor was convicted Monday of involuntary manslaughter in the pop star's death for supplying an insomnia-plagued Jackson with a powerful operating-room anesthetic to help him sleep as he rehearsed for his big comeback.
Dr. Conrad Murray sat stone-faced, chin held high, as he heard the verdict that could send him to prison for up to four years and cost him his license to practice medicine. He was handcuffed and immediately led off to jail without bail to await sentencing Nov. 29.
The verdict marked the latest chapter in one of pop culture's most shocking tragedies � the 2009 drug-overdose death of the King of Pop at age 50. He was about to mount a series of heavily promoted concerts in London that he hoped would turn his career around after a slide prompted by child-molestation allegations and years of bizarre behavior.
A shriek broke the silence in the packed courtroom when the jury's decision was read, and the crowd outside the courthouse erupted in cheers. Jubilant Jackson fans sang "Beat It" and held signs that read "Guilty" and "Killer." Drivers honked their horns... |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Not saying the doctor is innocent but the fact is MJ was an addict and was not going to stop looking for a doctor who would supply his addict. He'd have hired a witchdoctor if that person could feed his habit. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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At least he got the max. Murray was way guilty in this. No ethical doctor would be administering propofol in someone's bedroom.
Michael Jackson doctor sentenced to 4 years in jail
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Walgren argued, as he did during Murray's six-week trial which ended early this month, that the doctor was negligent from the moment he began to care for Jackson by ordering huge quantities of propofol, administering it at home without the proper equipment, failing to quickly call paramedics when he found Jackson lifeless on June 25, 2009, hiding evidence to coverup the propofol and lying to doctors about its use.
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BananaBan
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| Not saying the doctor is innocent but the fact is MJ was an addict and was not going to stop looking for a doctor who would supply his addict. He'd have hired a witchdoctor if that person could feed his habit. |
yes, people have to take into account personal responsibility and stop placing blame purely on doctor |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| BananaBan wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Not saying the doctor is innocent but the fact is MJ was an addict and was not going to stop looking for a doctor who would supply his addict. He'd have hired a witchdoctor if that person could feed his habit. |
yes, people have to take into account personal responsibility and stop placing blame purely on doctor |
So all his unique, immense musical contributions as well as his humanitarian achievements do not indicate personal responsibility?
No human being can be all things to all people, nor even himself. Without the proper people behind us, including great stars, we flounder, e.g. Billie Holiday. Michael Jackson was busy creating works of musical genius as well as helping millions of children around the world. Now you want him to be his own physician, too? No man is an island; we must all depend upon others at some points.
Yet, I do agree that all the blame should not be placed upon Conrad Murray. The murder of Michael Jackson began years earlier when accusations compelled him to give up or hide what he most loved in life: his young male friends. One might say that Evan Chandler got that ball rolling when he made the first accusations involving his son Jordie in 1993, but even Evan had to first be conditioned by the child sex abuse witch hunt.
After Evan walked in on MJ and Jordie spooning in Jordie's bedroom and hearing his wife remark, "Can't you see they're in love?" Evan merely considered it a gay relationship, with which he had no problem. It was only after he feared losing the affection of his son completely to Michael, that he denied Jordie permission to accompany Jackson on the Bad tour to Australia that Jordie defied his father and said he'd go even without his permission. That was too much for Evan to handle.
Evan then began to ply Jordie with questions about the details of his relationship with MJ. Jordie never wanted to implicate his best friend and lover and always denied any activities of a sexual nature.
He then began shopping his story around to doctors for advice. He was advised that this could be considered a case of child sex abuse, a ball with which Evan ran. Soon after, with Jordie in his dental chair, he placed him under anesthesia, and while badgering him then, got Jordie to mumble a feeble "yes" to the question of whether Michael had ever "touched" him. This was beginning MJ's downfall and of which we all know the rest of the story.
Michael and Jordie, by all accounts madly in love each one with the other, were forced to split apart. Not only that, but with his life now under a microscope of even greater magnification, had to give up or hide the bevy of other young males with whom Michael loved to spend time. Indeed, it was a rare night that Michael spent without one of those friends in his bed. He lost his loves.
It was the witch hunt that killed Michael Jackson.
Read Michael Jackson's Dangerous Liaisons. |
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NovaKart
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Are you implying that Michael and Jordan were lovers and not friends and that this is OK?
I read a review of the book that you posted earlier but I think the author is biased in presenting the information to fit his agenda.
I'm not aware of any neutral information about the first case but from what I've read about the 2nd case it seems like MJ was innocent. I do think the documentary and the 2nd case is was got him addicted to drugs. He was so terrified that he had to get a shot just to sleep. The doctor was unethical and deserves what he gets but I also feel like if this doctor didn't do what MJ wanted then he would have found someone else. He had the money to hire and fire whoever he wanted or whoever objected to anything. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| NovaKart wrote: |
| Are you implying that Michael and Jordan were lovers and not friends and that this is OK? |
As I said, they were best friends and lovers. It wouldn't be OK if they were lovers and not friends, but that's kinda hard to imagine.
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| I read a review of the book that you posted earlier but I think the author is biased in presenting the information to fit his agenda. |
It is notoriously unreliable to base an opinion of a book without having read it on a single review. In any event, I don't suppose it was this one by Professor Thomas K Hubbard, University of Texas at Austin, author of Homosexuality in Greece and Rome:
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Michael Jackson's Dangerous Liaisons carefully sifts through the welter of tabloid gossip and conflicting statements by those involved with the late star to separate fact from fiction. The picture that emerges is one that confirms Jackson's sexual attraction and active involvement with pre-pubescent boys. However, what the book also shows is that the only real 'abuse' of children that occurred was not from Michael's bedroom horseplay, but parental manipulation of kids for financial gain. As such, this book gives us a profound cultural critique of received assumptions about childhood innocence, pedophilic 'power', and parental goodwill.
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nor this one by Professor James R Kincaid, University of Southern California, author of Erotic Innocence: The culture of child molesting:
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Michael Jackson's Dangerous Liasions is the most engaging, informed, and generous-hearted book we have on the subject or are likely ever to have. If it has a fault, it is the modesty which informs the intelligence and compassion controlling this study: readers (of the title alone, say) might mistake its reach and depth, both of which are enormous, ranging over our sad cultural landscape with an acuity and alertness to detail and nuance vital to this field and almost never
exercised. I recommend this book strongly to anyone who feels our self-righteous egoism may have gotten in the way of our ability to see what is in front of our eyes and to act with some measure of justice and kindness. |
nor this one by Richard Green, Emeritus Professor of Psychiatry, University of California, Los Angeles; Founding President, 1975, International Academy of Sex Research; Founding Editor, 1971-2001, Archives of Sexual Behavior:
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Read here the unthinkable. Carefully documenting the many relationships of a celebrated entertainer, the writer promotes an alternative view of boy-man sexuality. It can be, he contends, mutually positive. It can be more than sexual � caring, bonding, loving.
This very readable book is packed with extensive research on Michael Jackson�s 'dangerous liaisons'. It portrays his sex partner preference, without doubt, as males � those nearly or recently pubertal. And, the author argues, such pairings need not be condemned.
Many readers will be outraged. Their convictions about the evils of any boy-man sexuality will prevail. But whether or not one is convinced, shaken, or even stirred by the author, this is a recommended read. It isn�t just another book about �Wacko Jacko�. There won�t be anything written quite like it. |
nor the one by leading sex researcher J. Michael Bailey published in the leading journal of academic sexology, Archives of Sexual Behavior.
You really need to read it for yourself. It is practically an academic tome itself with its 900+ references. Just about every serious, open-minded academic reviewer praises it glowingly. It is only the Michael Jackson "f'loons" who trash out of hand a book they never even read.
| NovaKart wrote: |
| I'm not aware of any neutral information about the first case but from what I've read about the 2nd case it seems like MJ was innocent. I do think the documentary and the 2nd case is was got him addicted to drugs. He was so terrified that he had to get a shot just to sleep. The doctor was unethical and deserves what he gets but I also feel like if this doctor didn't do what MJ wanted then he would have found someone else. He had the money to hire and fire whoever he wanted or whoever objected to anything. |
You, I, and author Carl Toms all agree then that Jackson was rightfully acquitted in the 2005 trial. This is covered in the book as well.
And if you do not want to take my word for it about MJ and Jordie's inseparability, then listen to his manager of 30+ years, Bob Jones, tell it (in the last couple of minutes), and listen to Roger Friedman's support of my contention that Michael's murder began in 1993 with the Chandler case. |
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NovaKart
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Location: Iraq
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see how it's relevant if sex and psychology experts like this book. How many of them ever met Michael Jackson? It may be well written and well researched in the psychology of sexuality but did the author have access to MJ's private life?
I watched one of the youtube links and his manager really didn't seem to know what was going on. It was interesting how the video managed to make the crane game and a room with a bed and a giant troll doll seem sinister.
I honestly don't know what to make of Michael Jackson. I like some of his songs but I'm not a fan of his and I don't have any motive in trying to make him appear innocent or guilty. I think it's possible he was misrepresented by the media. I've read many of the court documents relating to the 2005 trial and believe he was innocent since the family in question sounded like a bunch of grifters.
From the description I've heard of his relationship with Jordan it sounds innappropriate but we don't know how reliable the information we have is, and we don't know if it was sexual. You seem to regard them as lovers and think that if this is the case there's nothing wrong with that if I understand your posts correctly. Do you really think there's nothing wrong with that? |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| NovaKart wrote: |
| I don't see how it's relevant if sex and psychology experts like this book. How many of them ever met Michael Jackson? It may be well written and well researched in the psychology of sexuality but did the author have access to MJ's private life? |
Yes, it is true that no one was in bed with Michael and Jordie (or any of his other boy friends) videotaping the proceedings, but an abundance of available evidence does allow one, especially a scholar, to make the best educated guesses.
In any event, Hubbard is not a sexologist but rather an historian.
| Nor is Desiree Hill who wrote: |
| ...a damned good book! Only the most foolish of people would log onto Amazon and take an ignorant shot at Carl Toms' work without having read it... |
Nor are the following:
�It's been many years since I carried a book with me, anxious to read it over everything else in my life...destined to be a classic in the field of sexuality, along with Krafft-Ebing, Freud, Kinsey, and Masters/Johnson...�
Sally Miller (Synergy Press)
�I do not want to always read books that offer no admission of Michael�s human frailties. We can draw our own conclusions and offer much more informed debate if we read both favourable and unfavourable books as long as they are well written and thoroughly researched. I believe that this is such a book.
Elaine (Amazon)
�Congratulations to Mr Toms for having the courage to write the book that had to be written about Michael Jackson, but no one else dared. The irony of this detailed and cogent look into Jackson's heart and soul is that it is being condemned by those who ought to embrace it: Jackson's most faithful fans.�
Colton Alexander (Amazon)
�Michael Jackson's Dangerous Liaisons...is the answer for anyone who still may harbor questions about Jackson's sexuality. This encyclopedic tome leaves no stone unturned... There is a whole host of references to document all that Toms contends in this book... �
Caz (Amazon)
�Kein Buch f�r Dummk�pfe (No book for fools): a balanced, fact-based, critical account that will be welcomed by the curious and fearless reader.�
Peter Schulte-Stracke (Amazon, Germany)
�I've read the book twice; it's very interesting and illuminating...�
Will Robinson (BoyChat)
�...probably the most in-depth, well written book about Michael Jackson I have ever read.�
Goatmetal (Amazon)
�...extremely well researched... thought provoking...�
T Maler, Switzerland (Amazon)
| Nor is Ben Capel who wrote: |
| Toms' chapters on Jordie Chandler are almost unbearable to read. Jordie's father - who loved his son very much and held very liberal views about homosexuality - was driven to destructive madness and betrayal by a combination of Jackson's narcissistic indifference toward him and by child protection ideology itself. Earlier on, Toms shows, Evan Chandler had been prepared to accept that his son, who he suspected may be gay, might be having a sexual relationship with the singer. But Jackson's infatuation with Jordie (and Jordie's with him) had become almost ruthlessly exclusive; Evan increasingly felt ignored, dismissed and radically shut out of his own son's life. After consulting one of the numerous (and proliferating) child abuse gurus in the Land of the Free, Evan revised his former liberal stance. The 'expert' - psychiatrist Dr Mathis Abrams - had told him that such adult-minor liaisons were inevitably abusive and invariably prove highly damaging for boys in the long-run. |
| NovaKart wrote: |
| From the description I've heard of his relationship with Jordan it sounds innappropriate but we don't know how reliable the information we have is, and we don't know if it was sexual. You seem to regard them as lovers and think that if this is the case there's nothing wrong with that if I understand your posts correctly. Do you really think there's nothing wrong with that? |
Consider the fact that two independent books written by different authors in very different styles by or on behalf of principals in the case pretty much concur on the main details: Michael Jackson Was My Lover: The Secret Diaries of Jordie Chandler by Victor Gutierrez and All That Glitters by Raymond Chandler, brother of Evan who was his closest confidante at that time.
Nevertheless, I see a lot wrong with the scenario you describe. When such mutually desired relationships come to light, they wind up destroying the lives of those involved even beyond the immediate couple. Besides Jackson's career taking a blow from which it never recovered, Jordie cut off relationships with both his parents, and Evan committed suicide within four months of Jackson's death. I cannot prove that any remorse he may have felt for destroying MJ's career and his own relationship with his son were contributing factors, but one must certainly wonder. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Yeah that old evil child protection ideology!!! Another essay on why raping children is good!!!
Murray was a 'junkie" doctor. Made a living off addiction, he is guilty of that. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BananaBan wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Not saying the doctor is innocent but the fact is MJ was an addict and was not going to stop looking for a doctor who would supply his addict. He'd have hired a witchdoctor if that person could feed his habit. |
yes, people have to take into account personal responsibility and stop placing blame purely on doctor |
Damn straight they have to. I have never understood what it is about Michael Jackson, and his even creepier fans. The world over, you seldom see more hand-wringing hatred from the public than you do for those that mess about with kids, yet Michael Jackson was repeatedly forgiven for his years of very questionable and inappropriate relationships with young boys.
Now he's dead because he was a drug addict and you see the same glib, sinister crowds cheering en-masse at the conviction of this doctor, as if Michael Jackson was somehow wronged, had these drugs forced upon him. He was responsible for his own death. It's pathetic. |
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Ineverlie&I'malwaysri
Joined: 09 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Yeah that old evil child protection ideology!!! Another essay on why raping children is good!!! |
You are the first on this thread to mention that. So for how long have you been obsessed with child rape? |
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