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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:33 pm Post subject: Commit a crime in korea, face judgement in your home country |
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Am I reading this article correctly?
Guy kills someone in korea, the bandito....unknown to the police, is deported, bandito commits a crime in his home country, jailed, korean cops solve the murder and tie it to the guy....ah heck...read the article....
http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2946247&cloc=joongangdaily|home|newslist1
What I fail to understand is how any country would hold court and try someone for a crime done in another country...let alone a murder case! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Commit a crime in korea, face judgement in your home cou |
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It depends on the crime. For example if someone is Canadian/American and travels aboard for sex tourism with a minor he can be arrested in Canada or the U.S. upon his return and tried if they have proof. Fairly sure it's that way in many if not most Western countries. |
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weso1
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
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littlelisa
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
I think they're saying that you would be subject to American law even outside of America. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
I think they're saying that you would be subject to American law even outside of America. |
Which is something I disagree with. If I want to go to the Netherlands and do drugs, why should I be prosecuted? If I want to go to Japan and hunt whales, why should America punish me? By allowing the a country to exercise control over a person not under their jurisdiction, we are allowing THAT country to walk all over the sovereignty of another country. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| littlelisa wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
I think they're saying that you would be subject to American law even outside of America. |
Which is something I disagree with. If I want to go to the Netherlands and do drugs, why should I be prosecuted? If I want to go to Japan and hunt whales, why should America punish me? By allowing the a country to exercise control over a person not under their jurisdiction, we are allowing THAT country to walk all over the sovereignty of another country. |
No we aren't. Nor are they.
When you COME BACK to America you are putting yourself under their jurisdiction again and as such are legally subject to punishment under their laws. It's not like they'd be sending a SEAL team in after you in another country to illegally kidnap you.
Seriously how does that walk all over the sovereignty of another country? It's not like they are demanding the local authorities arrest you or anything...they are just waiting until you come home. I fail to see how the sovereignty of ANOTHER COUNTRY protects YOU from breaking the laws back home or how it is violated.
Countries have a right to enforce their laws inside their own borders. If it's fine in another country it doesn't mean that America has to change its laws to suit said other country. |
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alljokingaside
Joined: 17 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'm of the opinion that for most crimes, jurisdiction has to be within that nation's border, else you're looking at something like double jeopardy, if illegal in both host and home country.
Or, even if it becomes so that a defendant can only be prosecuted once, under whose laws? Since punishment differs between legal systems, the gov't would then have to set it up so that only the judicial system of the host or home country could try, judge, and sentence the defendant. And I doubt that any host country would want to give up the rights to judge people who've violated their laws within their borders. Eg Amanda Knox.
Additionally, if you can be prosecuted for a crime in eg the US for doing something legal, say, in eg Iraq, then it would mean, all things assumed fair, is that they would have that right, too.
If they wanted to set the law up for consistency, this is all assuming.
The biggest hurdle, though, would be enforcement.
The thing that I'm most concerned with with extraterritorial prosecutory rights is the potential for governmental abuse. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| alljokingaside wrote: |
I'm of the opinion that for most crimes, jurisdiction has to be within that nation's border, else you're looking at something like double jeopardy, if illegal in both host and home country.
Or, even if it becomes so that a defendant can only be prosecuted once, under whose laws? Since punishment differs between legal systems, the gov't would then have to set it up so that only the judicial system of the host or home country could try, judge, and sentence the defendant. And I doubt that any host country would want to give up the rights to judge people who've violated their laws within their borders. Eg Amanda Knox.
Additionally, if you can be prosecuted for a crime in eg the US for doing something legal, say, in eg Iraq, then it would mean, all things assumed fair, is that they would have that right, too.
If they wanted to set the law up for consistency, this is all assuming.
The biggest hurdle, though, would be enforcement.
The thing that I'm most concerned with with extraterritorial prosecutory rights is the potential for governmental abuse. |
"Crime is usually territorial. It is a matter of the law of the place where it occurs. Nevertheless, a surprising number of American criminal laws apply outside of the United States" (to US citizens).
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/94-166.pdf
Extraterritorial Application of American Criminal Law
Congressional Research Service, 7-5700, www.crs.gov, 94-166
Charles Doyle, Senior Specialist in American Public Law, March 26, 2010
Federal Crimes Subject to Federal Prosecution When Committed Overseas
Homicide
Kidnaping
Assault
Property Destruction Threats
False Statements
Theft
Counterfeiting
Plus a number of "Piggyback Statutes ".
So in light of the ORIGINAL POST TITLE, commit a crime in Korea and be prosecuted in the US = possible under certain circumstances.
And yes, the US government regularly abuses it - everything from kidnapping heads of state to territorial invasions of other sovereign nations to commit murder and destruction of private property (everything from DEA raids in central and south America to invasions and murder in allied countries like Pakistan all the while claiming the right to enforce American law against anyone (citizen or not), anywhere (American territory or not), anytime (at their own convenience).
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Kimchifart
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
It almost sounds as if you think the American justice system is more just than the British system. |
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crisdean
Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Location: Seoul Special City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Kimchifart wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
It almost sounds as if you think the American justice system is more just than the British system. |
And it almost sounds as if you're surprised that an American would feel that way. |
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Sister Ray
Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Location: Fukuoka
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. |
Then you should be more concerned with Obama's failure to veto security legislation which allows the military to indefinitely detain without trial American terrorism suspects.
Global justice isn't going to arbitrarily lock you up and throw away the key but your own Democratic president is aiming to do just that. What a joke.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/americans-face-guantanamo-detention-obama |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. |
Then you should be more concerned with Obama's failure to veto security legislation which allows the military to indefinitely detain without trial American terrorism suspects.
Global justice isn't going to arbitrarily lock you up and throw away the key but your own Democratic president is aiming to do just that. What a joke.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/americans-face-guantanamo-detention-obama |
When will people realize we have no rights. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| littlelisa wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| weso1 wrote: |
| We're gradually moving to a global legal system. All the better I say. |
Sorry, totally but respectivly, disagree. I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. When I leave America and I'm under someone else's laws so be it. However, I do not want any sort of global legal system that could quite possibly remove some of my rights from the bill of rights and the constitution.
For example, there are certain rules of evidence, heresay laws, etc. that is acceptable in a British or various European courts but would be inadmissable in the court of law in America.
The rest of the world can follow ours if it wants. However, I would not want any other country's or some agreed upon global law to be applied to me in my own country.
Lastly, its unconstiutional for Americans to be subject to any foreign law and a global law would be foreign, while n the U.S. |
I think they're saying that you would be subject to American law even outside of America. |
Equally as bad and although not a constitutional lawyer, I'd hope if looked at objectively it would be. Obvious exceptions are cases in treason and the like.
However, if I am abiding by local law, I don't see how its any of American jurisprudence's business.
The law against sex with girls/boys overseas if its lower than America's and prosecuting when they come back is a very noble idea. I completely understand the sentiment and at the risk of sounding sympathetic to some of these sick bastards I disagree that if the local age of consent/majority says such and such in a country and they are abiding it, the beef America should have is with that countries age of consent/majority and not the american citizen.
I can see this train of thought corrupted and expanded. Used as precedence for other things. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sister Ray wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| I'm an American. I want the rights afforded me under the consitution. |
Then you should be more concerned with Obama's failure to veto security legislation which allows the military to indefinitely detain without trial American terrorism suspects.
Global justice isn't going to arbitrarily lock you up and throw away the key but your own Democratic president is aiming to do just that. What a joke.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/americans-face-guantanamo-detention-obama |
Its a different issue but I'm aware of that and just as opposed as well. However, the fault for that law is us as a people collectively. Obama and Congress are OUR representatives and as a collecive we let them do this crap. You get the government you deserve...unfortunately and sadly but its what we as a people let happen. |
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