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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:00 am Post subject: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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I've noticed that there is a great deal of variance regarding compensation at universities in Korea for EFL teaching positions. Most positions for undergraduate credit courses give the instructor a shared office, and the standard summer & winter vacations, sometimes with required teaching during vacation, but usually with overtime.
Where the difference comes in is the pay and teaching load: I see jobs advertised which require anywhere from 12 to 18 teaching hours per week, which is quite a difference. Most surprising of all though is the pay: it's not uncommon to see jobs at around 2.2, others at 2.5, and a (seemingly?) rare few at 3.0 and above.
I could understand if the higher paying jobs had more teaching hours or demanded higher qualifications (like the graduate school positions I see advertised, which often require a PhD), but often it's the opposite- an ad will say the job is 18 teaching hours per week, pays 2.3, and applicants must have an MA with teaching experience, while another job will require 12 teaching hours per week and pay 2.8.
How can some universities get away with paying less? Why do some universities pay more? I would expect more uniformity out a competitive market for employees. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Just a guess, but I've seen some schools try to snag teachers as cheaply as possible. Usually, this bites them in the backside later. They get lots of apps, choose the best from the list, hold interviews, hire, then find that the teacher leaves them for a better-paying position they qualified for a few weeks later.
Also, lowballing with salary tends to scare-off decent candidates who know they can do better.
Basically, the schools end up getting what they deserve.
Make a list of the lowest-paying schools now. I'll bet you most of them will be frantically hiring in a month and placing new ads. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Judging from what people say on these boards there's a perceived progression from hagwan/public school to crappy university out in the sticks to gain experience, to good university in Seoul for that coveted 5 month holiday, 9/12 hours a week job.
The universities offering 2.2 have probably got their eye on the 2 year experience in hagwan/public school job + maybe in the middle of doing an MA and wanting to get a foot in the university door crowd. For hagwans on the other hand there is no tier system. they're all (with very few exceptions) entry level jobs. Hence the uniformity in salary |
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Kwangjuchicken
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Location: I was abducted by aliens on my way to Korea and forced to be an EFL teacher on this crazy planet.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
I've noticed that there is a great deal of variance regarding compensation at universities in Korea for EFL teaching positions. Most positions for undergraduate credit courses give the instructor a shared office, and the standard summer & winter vacations, sometimes with required teaching during vacation, but usually with overtime.
Where the difference comes in is the pay and teaching load: I see jobs advertised which require anywhere from 12 to 18 teaching hours per week, which is quite a difference. Most surprising of all though is the pay: it's not uncommon to see jobs at around 2.2, others at 2.5, and a (seemingly?) rare few at 3.0 and above.
I could understand if the higher paying jobs had more teaching hours or demanded higher qualifications (like the graduate school positions I see advertised, which often require a PhD), but often it's the opposite- an ad will say the job is 18 teaching hours per week, pays 2.3, and applicants must have an MA with teaching experience, while another job will require 12 teaching hours per week and pay 2.8.
How can some universities get away with paying less? Why do some universities pay more? I would expect more uniformity out a competitive market for employees. |
I have seen some for Spring 2012 that are only 1.8 |
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liveinkorea316
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Not all uni jobs are teaching credit courses. That does not mean they pay less but sometimes they might. On the other hand you might find a job teaching credit courses at a national uni might pay lowest because of the reputation they can use to pull in teachers. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:41 am Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
I've noticed that there is a great deal of variance regarding compensation at universities in Korea for EFL teaching positions.
Where the difference comes in is the pay and teaching load: I see jobs advertised which require anywhere from 12 to 18 teaching hours per week, which is quite a difference. Most surprising of all though is the pay: it's not uncommon to see jobs at around 2.2, others at 2.5, and a (seemingly?) rare few at 3.0 and above.
How can some universities get away with paying less? Why do some universities pay more? I would expect more uniformity out a competitive market for employees. |
Working at a Korean university can be a real grab bag and it's hard know what you'll be getting before you're actually in the job. By and large, though, Korean universities can be categorized into those that treat foreign instructors equally and those that do not. Unfortunately, most do not.
| cdninkorea wrote: |
| How can some universities get away with paying less? Why do some universities pay more? I would expect more uniformity out a competitive market for employees. |
If equality is what you're after, and you hold a relevant M.A. degree that was not obtained through distance study, then I suggest you have a look at university teaching positions in Taiwan.
In Taiwan, there is far less discrimination based on nationality and all university teaching posts are MoE stipulated. That means foreign teachers receive the same pay and bonuses, same benefits and same teaching load as the Taiwanese teachers.
Even though there is a move for Korean universities to internationalize and bring in foreign instructors, most have no intention of treating them equally.
So, even though the bar has been set higher for many foreign instructors to now hold an M.A. or Ph.D and also publications for these coveted university teaching posts, most Korean universities continue limit foreign teaching staff to non-renewable term contracts, reduced compensation packages and high teaching loads.
Discriminatory hiring practices won't change anytime soon. In fact, I've watched salaries decline and teaching loads increase over the last 5 years. The irony is that schools are now seeking more qualified candidates but still want to put them on packages that are no better than working for a hogwan or high school. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:09 am Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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Shimokitazawa:
My MA was obtained through a distance programme, so Taiwan is out for me I guess. Out of curiosity though, how do they know whether or not your degree was done on site or otherwise? My diploma and transcript doesn't say either way, so...
Regarding my university, I'm not treated the same as the Korean professors, but that's because I don't have a PhD. There are some foreign PhD holders teaching subjects such as English literature, physics, law, and so on, and as far as I know, they are treated the same as their Korean colleagues regarding work conditions, compensation, and possibility of tenure (the key phrase here though is "as far as I know"; they are certainly in better positions than I am in because of their qualifications and what their responsibilities are, but I can't be sure there is absolutely no difference between them and their Korean peers in how they're treated). |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
Shimokitazawa:
My MA was obtained through a distance programme, so Taiwan is out for me I guess. Out of curiosity though, how do they know whether or not your degree was done on site or otherwise? My diploma and transcript doesn't say either way, so...
Regarding my university, I'm not treated the same as the Korean professors, but that's because I don't have a PhD. There are some foreign PhD holders teaching subjects such as English literature, physics, law, and so on, and as far as I know, they are treated the same as their Korean colleagues regarding work conditions, compensation, and possibility of tenure (the key phrase here though is "as far as I know"; they are certainly in better positions than I am in because of their qualifications and what their responsibilities are, but I can't be sure there is absolutely no difference between them and their Korean peers in how they're treated). |
cdninkorea,
Scott Sommers, a Canadian Lecturer at Ming Chuan University in Taipei City, has written quite a bit about this. So has Michael Turton, an American Lecturer teaching at a university in Taiwan.
They have both written about the MoE's position on distance Master's degrees and that they require all academic transcripts and degrees to be verified and authenticated by their TECO office in the country where your university is located.
The MoE will then examine the dates that you claimed to have studied for your M.A. degree on campus and see if they jive with the entry and exit stamps in your passport (they require a copy of your passport) and dates of employment on your resume. For instance, it's impossible to be at two places at the same time - i.e., You may claim that you were back in Canada (or the U.K.?) studying on campus but your passport stamps and employment dates indicate that you were living and working in Korea! They'd pick up on that really fast.
Here is what Scott wrote on the Forumosa forum in response to questions about foreign EFL teachers wanting to use their distance M.A. degrees to find university teaching positions in Taiwan:
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You can not be legally hired as a university faculty member in the ROC based on a graduate degree that is on-line or distance.
It is not a decision made by individual schools. It is a national regulation of the MOE that is prescribed by the Teacher's Act. There is an English version on the MOE website, so I imagine you can find it there.
That does not mean it isn't done. I imagine there are ways of misrepresenting degrees or hiding the facts from the MOE. It is also my experience that foreign teachers, even foreign teachers with lots of experience teaching at universities, are often confused about the details of university hiring situations. For example, they have trouble distinguishing between faculty and staff positions. It may be something like this that is the cause of this confusion.
I guess the point I am making is DO NOT go get a distance degree thinking that if the school likes you enough, they will hire you. You will almost certainly not be able to get a job at a Taiwan university. |
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Mikejelai
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Why would they discriminate against MA holders from regionally accredited universities? Diploma mills I can understand, but not good online MAs. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikejelai wrote: |
| Why would they discriminate against MA holders from regionally accredited universities? Diploma mills I can understand, but not good online MAs. |
Because the Taiwanese government refuses to recognize distance study. There are various reasons for this, such as increased competition against Taiwanese universities. That, and distance study is foreign to them and they're distrustful of it.
95% of the people I know have done their M.A. degrees through distance / online study. So most are ineligible for a Taiwanese university facutly EFL teaching position.
My advice: Don't do an M.A. degree through distance.
One other point regarding the question of disparity between contract packages for foreign EFL teachers at Korean universities. Most of us are not bona fide faculty at our schools.
We are regarded as Staff. Staff as in no different than the secretaries or janitors working in the school. We aren't faculty. Therefore, Korean universities have a lot of discretion in terms of our compensation, teaching load, etc.
The differences between Staff regarded English teachers (98% of the foreign EFL teachers at Korean universities) and academic faculty is incredible. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
We are regarded as Staff. Staff as in no different than the secretaries or janitors working in the school. We aren't faculty. Therefore, Korean universities have a lot of discretion in terms of our compensation, teaching load, etc.
The differences between Staff regarded English teachers (98% of the foreign EFL teachers at Korean universities) and academic faculty is incredible. |
And yet, I wonder what (in general) the real differences are in terms of credentials, knowledge, and teaching skills.
Was in a government job here where the foreigners were considered staff and it affected the way they treated you. Just one example: Koreans got free lunch but the cleaning staff and foreigner staff had to buy tickets. It's almost like they could extent the benefit but they want that distinction over us. The Korean workers would see that at lunchtime and rank us accordingly. It's petty but it makes a difference. Over that attitude. Not sure how people can work and live here long term and not have this kind of stuff bother them.
I'm considering taking a uni job offer, but I'm not that excited if it's just more of the same kind of attitude as before. Students are probably aware of your lack of status too and may react accordingly.
Anyway, already they are being dodgy about the details. Is it standard to not divulge actual salary or housing details, but expect the applicant to accept the job first and then collect all their documents? Seems a bit backwards and shady but they aren't sharing details. I've got another offer and I need to weigh it out but not sure how to go about it. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
| cdninkorea wrote: |
Shimokitazawa:
My MA was obtained through a distance programme, so Taiwan is out for me I guess. Out of curiosity though, how do they know whether or not your degree was done on site or otherwise? My diploma and transcript doesn't say either way, so...
Regarding my university, I'm not treated the same as the Korean professors, but that's because I don't have a PhD. There are some foreign PhD holders teaching subjects such as English literature, physics, law, and so on, and as far as I know, they are treated the same as their Korean colleagues regarding work conditions, compensation, and possibility of tenure (the key phrase here though is "as far as I know"; they are certainly in better positions than I am in because of their qualifications and what their responsibilities are, but I can't be sure there is absolutely no difference between them and their Korean peers in how they're treated). |
The MoE will then examine the dates that you claimed to have studied for your M.A. degree on campus and see if they jive with the entry and exit stamps in your passport (they require a copy of your passport) and dates of employment on your resume. For instance, it's impossible to be at two places at the same time - i.e., You may claim that you were back in Canada (or the U.K.?) studying on campus but your passport stamps and employment dates indicate that you were living and working in Korea! They'd pick up on that really fast.
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I guess it's a good thing my passport expires. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:55 am Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| I guess it's a good thing my passport expires. |
They're on to that trick, too.
If an applicant doesn't have their old passport, they have to go down to immigration and get print outs of their entry / exit information and they have to get it verified by the TECO in the country they're in. Then they have to attach the stamped documents to their application.
If you were in Korea at the time, there's no way you'd get around it.
You might work around all that though if you were back in Canada or the U.K. (wherever your university is located) and applied. Since you were physically present in the country where your university is located, it'd be impossible for TECO to verify if it was distance study.
That being said, TECO does phone schools to verify whether "Chad from Canada" studied at that particular school, his major and whether it was distance or on campus study.
Essentially, before the MoE issues a Certificate of Lectureship to a foreign university teacher, they do a little investigation into each teacher.
So even with the lost passport excuse, which some teachers with distance master's degrees have tried to claim, there are other things the MoE does to verify academic degrees. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| I guess it's a good thing my passport expires. |
They're on to that trick, too.
If an applicant doesn't have their old passport, they have to go down to immigration and get print outs of their entry / exit information and they have to get it verified by the TECO in the country they're in. Then they have to attach the stamped documents to their application.
If you were in Korea at the time, there's no way you'd get around it.
You might work around all that though if you were back in Canada or the U.K. (wherever your university is located) and applied. Since you were physically present in the country where your university is located, it'd be impossible for TECO to verify if it was distance study.
That being said, TECO does phone schools to verify whether "Chad from Canada" studied at that particular school, his major and whether it was distance or on campus study.
Essentially, before the MoE issues a Certificate of Lectureship to a foreign university teacher, they do a little investigation into each teacher.
So even with the lost passport excuse, which some teachers with distance master's degrees have tried to claim, there are other things the MoE does to verify academic degrees. |
I guess it's a good thing I'm deep into PhD work. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:53 am Post subject: Re: University jobs: why so much disparity? |
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| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
| nathanrutledge wrote: |
| I guess it's a good thing my passport expires. |
They're on to that trick, too.
If an applicant doesn't have their old passport, they have to go down to immigration and get print outs of their entry / exit information and they have to get it verified by the TECO in the country they're in. Then they have to attach the stamped documents to their application.
If you were in Korea at the time, there's no way you'd get around it.
You might work around all that though if you were back in Canada or the U.K. (wherever your university is located) and applied. Since you were physically present in the country where your university is located, it'd be impossible for TECO to verify if it was distance study.
That being said, TECO does phone schools to verify whether "Chad from Canada" studied at that particular school, his major and whether it was distance or on campus study.
Essentially, before the MoE issues a Certificate of Lectureship to a foreign university teacher, they do a little investigation into each teacher.
So even with the lost passport excuse, which some teachers with distance master's degrees have tried to claim, there are other things the MoE does to verify academic degrees. |
I guess it's a good thing I'm deep into PhD work. |
As long as it's not by distance study. |
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