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ptaza
Joined: 03 Mar 2011
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 Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:57 am Post subject: heads up |
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just wanted to let everyone beware of what happened to me:
apparently if you work in an establishment with less than five employees, the labor law doesn't apply to you.
i just got told the inevitable was happening, my hogwan was shutting down, and next wednesday at that (told today of course). {first thing they say as they don't pay my airfare or severance, real classy people.} my korean co teacher called the various labor offices and was told the same thing, that we're too small of a place.
so, if you have a contract, and you think that you might be safe from, say, being homeless tomorrow, because it says they need to give you two weeks/one month notice, if you work at a place with fewer than five employees, you might as well burn it(the contract).
she hasn't been contributing to my pension and i told her that we are going there tomorrow and i'll watch her put it in, so if there's anymore "heads up" i'll be sure to mention them here.
good luck out there.
(as a sidenote, i once saw someone say that you should piss in their cereal by getting them audited...well i happen to know that they declare all of their employees as making 700,000 won less than they are and they said to please not tell anyone this. now, of course, i want to. anyone with any input on the matter?) |
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escarole
Joined: 06 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| I got burned by a small hagwon a while back. Posted on here asking about exactly what if any protection K labor law gives in such a case, but never got a response. Still curious to know. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Not sure if this will work in your current situation, but here goes:
Do this politely and calmly. (this is important)
Tell them you were happy to work for them and are sorry to leave on bad terms.
Tell them that you need to get your full pay and benefits and that you really don't want to cause trouble for them, but if they refuse to pay up you will have no choice but to report them to the tax office as well as post the name
of their hagwon on every blacklist site on the internet, as well as the embassies of every English speaking nation on the planet.
Make it clear that you would prefer not to do this and that you would much rather work things out amicably.
The threat of punishment is often stronger than the punishment itself.
I've never tried this myself, but I've read on this forum that it has worked for others in the past.
Best of luck.
If they are shutting down, make sure you get the name of the owner/manager and address etc. They will probably just try to re-open under another name. |
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bbunce
Joined: 28 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to hear this is happening to you. I know it is very common for hagwons to report less earnings. Thanks for the tip about the 5 or less employees. However, I wouldn't trust what your co-teacher said either. Go to the labor office and verify it. I'm guessing she has been deducting your wages for pension and the balance is zero? I am also guessing you haven't been given any paystubs? Also, check the tax office to verify they've been paying your taxes.
Make sure she gives you a letter of release, don't sign anything from them, and change your status to D10 at immigration. Also, demand to be paid now or don't teach anymore. Just sit in the classroom, feet up on the desk, and maybe give the students a bunch of wordsearches. If you don't have the money to go back home and want to, tell immigration this too. They'll have to foot the bill but it will take awhile.
Anyway, I really hope things go better for you. Please keep us posted. |
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Wildbore
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:54 am Post subject: Re: heads up |
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| ptaza wrote: |
just wanted to let everyone beware of what happened to me:
apparently if you work in an establishment with less than five employees, the labor law doesn't apply to you.
i just got told the inevitable was happening, my hogwan was shutting down, and next wednesday at that (told today of course). {first thing they say as they don't pay my airfare or severance, real classy people.} my korean co teacher called the various labor offices and was told the same thing, that we're too small of a place.
so, if you have a contract, and you think that you might be safe from, say, being homeless tomorrow, because it says they need to give you two weeks/one month notice, if you work at a place with fewer than five employees, you might as well burn it(the contract). |
Really, in the English translation of the labor standards enfocement degree act, it clearly shows most laws do pertain to businesses with less than 5 employees. Granted, some still don't, but in the next 5 years, all the laws will be transitioning to the smaller businesses as well. Go to the enforcement degree PDF and scroll to the last page, it shows which laws apply to business with 4 workers and less.
http://www.moel.go.kr/english/topic/laborlaw_view.jsp?idx=254&tab=Standards
Or just pay money to have your contract translated into Korean, go to the courthouse, fill out the complaint form. Even if some laws don't apply to your case or your labor office is being useless, a court can still rule on the law and the contract.
You should act quickly as the sooner you lodge your compllaint, the sooner you can get money from the bankruptcy. Explain this to the court clerk, he should be able to help you. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: Re: heads up |
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| ptaza wrote: |
just wanted to let everyone beware of what happened to me:
apparently if you work in an establishment with less than five employees, the labor law doesn't apply to you.
i just got told the inevitable was happening, my hogwan was shutting down, and next wednesday at that (told today of course). {first thing they say as they don't pay my airfare or severance, real classy people.} my korean co teacher called the various labor offices and was told the same thing, that we're too small of a place.
so, if you have a contract, and you think that you might be safe from, say, being homeless tomorrow, because it says they need to give you two weeks/one month notice, if you work at a place with fewer than five employees, you might as well burn it(the contract).
she hasn't been contributing to my pension and i told her that we are going there tomorrow and i'll watch her put it in, so if there's anymore "heads up" i'll be sure to mention them here.
good luck out there.
(as a sidenote, i once saw someone say that you should piss in their cereal by getting them audited...well i happen to know that they declare all of their employees as making 700,000 won less than they are and they said to please not tell anyone this. now, of course, i want to. anyone with any input on the matter?) |
You have many issues here, so here goes:
1) If your school is closing it is likely because they are losing money. It could be due to bad management, bad teachers, a bad economy in your area, increased competition or a combination of those, and it makes little difference. Your school is broke and if they weren't they'd stay open or at least sell the business.
2) Most of the labor laws that could help you are no longer restricted to the under 5 employee rule.
3) Your contract is valid and is not affected by the labor laws nor is it invalid based on the size of the school. Whatever you have been promised in your contract you are entitled to get. However, since your school is broke you may be unable to collect - blood from a stone and all that. Labor laws can sometimes guarantee you more than what is in your contract, but not less.
4) You have been given only 1 week notice of this closing. You are entitled to whatever notice your contract promised - 2 weeks, 1 month, 2 months or whatever and they should pay. In addition labor law promises you a minimum of 1 month's notice or 1 month's pay - so three additional weeks. Again, the blood from a stone problem.
5) If you have worked less than 1 full year you are not entitled to either your severance pay or your return airfare under most contracts (unless yours is quite unusual it will say this). The number of employees is not relevant and there is no labor law that will give this to you no matter what the size of your employer happens to be.
6) Reporting any illegal non-payment or underpayment of things like pension, health insurance and taxes (as you have mentioned) could result in you obtaining additional amounts. The various offices can go after your boss for these amounts. However, they may also come after you for your unpaid portion. In addition, your employer, if bankrupt may be relieved from the legal obligation to make some of these payments.
It's unfortunate that your employer's business has failed. They are probably losing quite a bit more than you are. If they have some other substantial source of income or outside wealth they may offer you some prorated payments for severance and airfare, but chances are, like most workers at failed businesses, you will take some losses. Time to chin up, make the best of your remaining time, be sympathetic and try to obtain whatever you can and move on. |
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soyoungmikey
Joined: 29 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The notification (30 days) is only applicable if you have worked more than 6 months. If they are going out of business you have no recourse. |
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plchron
Joined: 26 Feb 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| OP; this is a time where you can't trust your CT. you have to go and file a claim anyway. remember 5 employees does not mean 5 teachers. There is you and your CT, probably a bus driver, etc. You should be fine. Stop asking anyone at your current hagwon for advice and don't give them any warning. File a complaint, switch to D-10, etc. They took your money, now it is your turn to emasculate them. Also, sue them just for fun. It really isn't that hard and will make their life a living hell. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Professional help.
When something is this important - go to the horse's mouth. Same with visa problems. Seeking advice here can be reassuring and help point people in the right direction ---- but it should only be a plan B option -- the first option should always be going directly to the labor board or immigration or whichever.
I was told by a local consulate I couldn't get the F-series spousal visa. After coming here on an E-2, just as an after thought, I got in touch with a lawyer within the immigration department, and he said they were wrong.
Go to the labor board yourself and hear from them directly.
File a complaint. What could it hurt?
Maybe the place is going bankrupt and your chance of getting money owed is slim. Maybe the owners have other businesses and you could get money owed.
One thing is certain - if you don't try yourself, you are certain to end up with nothing. |
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bbunce
Joined: 28 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| plchron wrote: |
| OP; this is a time where you can't trust your CT. you have to go and file a claim anyway. remember 5 employees does not mean 5 teachers. There is you and your CT, probably a bus driver, etc. You should be fine. Stop asking anyone at your current hagwon for advice and don't give them any warning. File a complaint, switch to D-10, etc. They took your money, now it is your turn to emasculate them. Also, sue them just for fun. It really isn't that hard and will make their life a living hell. |
Excellent advice.
Someone wrote "be sympathetic"....hell no!!! They should have let you know a few weeks ago, not just a week. Everyone knew they were closing weeks ago. (except you and that was probably joked around in the office-ignorant american..hahaha) They didn't notifiy you on purpose because they figured you'd bail early. Time to be vindictive not sympathetic |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| bbunce wrote: |
| plchron wrote: |
| OP; this is a time where you can't trust your CT. you have to go and file a claim anyway. remember 5 employees does not mean 5 teachers. There is you and your CT, probably a bus driver, etc. You should be fine. Stop asking anyone at your current hagwon for advice and don't give them any warning. File a complaint, switch to D-10, etc. They took your money, now it is your turn to emasculate them. Also, sue them just for fun. It really isn't that hard and will make their life a living hell. |
Excellent advice.
Someone wrote "be sympathetic"....hell no!!! They should have let you know a few weeks ago, not just a week. Everyone knew they were closing weeks ago. (except you and that was probably joked around in the office-ignorant american..hahaha) They didn't notifiy you on purpose because they figured you'd bail early. Time to be vindictive not sympathetic |
I totally agree with this.
a hagwon I worked a few years ago notified all of us they were going to close, maybe 2 wks notice. I'd just arrived 3 months prior! we were all taken out to dinner and given LORs, but no pay other than what was owed. I was given an extra week to move out of my apt.
later I learned they didn't cancel my visa but when I found another job, I did a visa run anyway, maybe it could have been transferred, I don't know.
at any rate, I always regretted not trying to get some sort of compensation for all the trouble they put me through. that is, I had started in March, and they closed end of May, so it was a difficult time to find a new position. The one I did find was only part time, it worked out ok but still, I lost considerable income.
you gotta look out for yourself, no one else will. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
apparently if you work in an establishment with less than five employees, the labor law doesn't apply to you.
i just got told the inevitable was happening, my hogwan was shutting down, and next wednesday at that (told today of course). {first thing they say as they don't pay my airfare or severance, real classy people.} my korean co teacher called the various labor offices and was told the same thing, that we're too small of a place. |
That's normal for any size company. It doesn't have to be small. A larger company might have more money, but if they have to close, you are going to be further down the line to collect. Meaning, you still won't get anything even though the higher ups got something.
| Quote: |
| so, if you have a contract, and you think that you might be safe from, say, being homeless tomorrow, because it says they need to give you two weeks/one month notice, if you work at a place with fewer than five employees, you might as well burn it(the contract). |
That has no bearing on a business closing. That has to do when the business is still running. There is a D10 visa now, and it should allow you to find another school. Homelessness is a man made creation. You either put yourself there or you find other work. We are only employed for 1 year, then we are just as "homeless" as someone whose school closes.
Solution, find another school. That simple. |
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ptaza
Joined: 03 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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wow! thanks everyone for your advice. we have actually left the school. there's a few things that i didn't mention in my heads up.
one is that they had forcibly transferred me to this school after three months of me working at another school with my husband. they did this by releasing my visa, and telling me i needed to sign a new contract with this woman.
they were business partners...but it was under the table since he couldn't have his name on his old business (that he'd sold half of to her) because his new business stipulated he couldn't have any other hogwan name in his name.
so anyway, i got there, they fired or told everyone else that moved from the old hogwan, (three people in total) to quit. so i'm seeing everyone dropping out like flies and then i see that apparently they had no legal recourse (and this man apparently knew it) because they had set foot in this new hogwan and they hadn't signed a new contract at the new location.
they never did anything to get this new hogwan off the ground and we had on average 20 students (including the 'boss's' two) from beginning to close. so i had a feeling it was going to end. i went to the pension office because i had a bad feeling and found out about the tax evasion tactic and when i asked her about it, she said please we don't have many students, please don't tell anyone. then she said why did you go to the pension office? maybe you were worried that we didn't have enough children and we might be closing? i said yes, i AM worried about that. and i IMPLORED her to pleeeaaassee tell me if they would be closing so i would have a heads up.
anyway, the whole thing is over.
i agree with the vindictiveness. i know--because they kept my husband and the old hogwan wiith the new name---that they're doing a booming business over there.
we will try the lawsuit. the tax office. a lawyer we'd talked to before. and the labor board. these people shouldn't be having foreigners fly in to treat them this way. they have abused us since the beginning, but (and in response to another thread that i've seen) we stayed because of the money.
in response to the homelessness, we're not going to be homeless  i was trying to convey the sense of don't count on where your next roof may be. i may have been exaggerating somewhat given the state of mind that i was in. there's always the jin jil bangs!! 
anyway, i really really appreciate everything that everyone said, so i guess i should really take this as a 'heads up' to myself that i still have rights even with less than five employees! 
ptaza |
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