Korean Job Discussion Forums

[The King of Kwangju]

A couple months ago I went to Korea for a vacation. I had not been back for 11 years, some of you might be interested in my impressions of the place.

The first thing I noticed (before I even left) was how underdeveloped the English-language internet resources for Korea are. I was interested in Korean food and culture. The government-run websites were full of cliches at best. The foreign-run sites were blogs with patchy coverage, outdated, ill-informed, badly organized, or were more interested in foreign life in Korea than Korean culture and food.

In the end I found the Korean internet more helpful, useful, and informed.

But really, despite the prevalence of the internet since I left, I found the best information by talking to people, face to face. I assumed the internet would have taken over by now.

For drinkers, expat life has not changed much. A night at the bar is a good time, and it's easy to meet new people and hear interesting stories.

I was also impressed to see a wealth of non-drinking activities going on: sports, arts, culture. All kinds of things, and not just in the Seoul expat community.

In my day, most foreigners were not crazy about Korea. Most couldn't wait to leave. At best, they were enduring it. But time and time again I met expats who planned on staying long term and who loved the country. It's definitely easier to live in Korea now than it was in the 90s.

The food is just as fantastic as I remembered, sometimes even more so. It's hard to get good Korean ingredients outside of Korea, and it makes a big difference in the taste. There is a lot more Western food in general, and while Koreans are getting better at making it, it's still a waste of time to buy, with so much great Korean food around. However Koreans seem to be absorbing the new western choices well: Korean food is still popular, they just have more choices now.

In general the place is more western: shops, fashions, food, and there is more variety there. Not everyone is wearing exactly the same fashions (although most of them are similar - dark).

I don't remember the place being so drab. To me it was a very vibrant place full of energy and I never knew what to expect when I walked out the door. But going back I saw that it's about a tenth as interesting as I remembered. It's homogenous, and most people fit neatly into roles: student, businessman, fish seller, etc.

Also, it's a lot grungier and uglier than I remembered. The buildings are mostly the same. Rough, basic, and unlit.

The place is definitely more international than it was 10 years ago. More Koreans have travelled, and there is a more worldly feel to it: the fashion, the food, the people. They don't stare so much at foreigners, at least not directly. It used to be that a middle aged woman was something to behold with the curly hair, Burberry pants, and the blustery demeanor, now they are harder to laugh at. They are better dressed and carry themselves less like farmers.

There are a lot more international people as well, but not what Koreans expected in the 90's: Westerners. There are a lot of Asians, both tourists and workers. Myungdong was full of Chinese, Japanese, and Thai tourists, and I once got directions from a Vietnamese factory worker and his girlfriend, both of us communicating in Korean, which would have been unthinkable 10 years ago.

A lot of the rough edges have been smoothed off. Less people spitting in the street, and amazingly, they have learned how to wait in line for things. The whole place just felt a lot rougher back in the day. The Seoul subway is incredibly civilized: quiet, fast, clean, on time, and riders are super polite.

In general, I enjoyed my stay immensely. Being able to read, write, and speak Korean was a huge plus. There are some things about the country that I love, and it was wonderful to see some of my old haunts again. I will definitely be back.

At the same time, seeing it all again reinforced the fact that leaving was a smart thing for me to do. As much as I loved Korea, there was not a lot for me there anymore, and I was pretty much at a dead end.

[myenglishisno]

Wow, great read! I'm always fascinated in hearing about ye ole' 외국인 experience. I've only been here for half a decade and I've already seen great changes, I can't imagine what it must be like for someone who lived here more than a decade ago!

Were the cookie-cutter, Soviet-style apartment blocks everywhere in your time or was it mostly villas?

How was the Seoul metro different back then? The only changes I've seen to the Seoul metro in my time was the adding of barriers and new lines/stations.

Did it look significantly poorer back then? Does it seem much wealthier now?

Is the level of spoken English better or worse (if you noticed)?

I'm also wondering how much of the rest of Korea you saw in your time back. As far as I know, large swaths of Gyeonggi-do and many other areas must seem entirely different. Many entire cities were demolished, built and completely rebuilt in the time you were gone. Maybe those areas were just trees before

Anyway, neat stuff..

[The King of Kwangju]

Thanks, myenglishisno. I was worried this was a little long, so glad to hear you liked it.

My trip was Seoul and Gwangju. I had never lived in Seoul, but living in NYC now, the Seoul subway was a real eye-opener for me. It might not have changed in the last 11 years, I don't remember.

The apartment blocks were all there in the 90s. They have not aged well. If you go to an older block now, it really looks it.

It didn't look wealthier at all to my eyes. There was always a lot of money flying around.

I have to say, I really expected that after all that time, the English would be better. Most in the service industries where you would expect them to be interacting with foreigners, clearly struggled. I mean, the English was better than it was in the 90s, but not 11 years better.

Yet on the other hand, people on the street surprised me. Once in Seoul, a guy in front of me tripped and I caught him. "Are you ok?" I instinctively asked. "Yes, thanks," he said, without skipping a beat, and was on his way.

A small thing, but amazing that he could answer in English in that situation. I think if our roles had been reversed, and me in New York, I don't think I would have been so quick with the "kamsahmnida."

I stopped a kid on the street and asked for directions (in English) in the outskirts of GJ -- not a place where foreigners would be. The first kid totally freaked out and ran away. The second muddled through and gave me directions, and walked me most of the way.

I was blown away by the level of courtesy and niceness in Korea, something I had forgotten about, and which really put NYC to shame.

[Julius]

I agree with most of your post except for

[The Floating World]

^^

Perhaps he means it was way worse back then, like China now.

Seriosuly, you think Koreans are bad, China would blow your noodle man.

Not that it bothers me. I realise the cultural factors in play, mostly that those from a confucian society don't think it right to call others out in public. Also, hey if I'm in a rush, know what? I can get away with it too, and damned right I will.

It's kind of like, yeah you suffer it, but when you're the person in a rush, you get to get away with it too, so it all evens out.

[youtuber]

Great post.

[The King of Kwangju]

In the late 90s, there were rarely lines for anything at all.

In Namdaemun market, I saw lines for hoddeok, in the Seoul subway, everyone lines up orderly in front of the subway door waiting to get in (and you get a stern look if you violate that line), at fast food restaurants, people wait in line to place their orders.

In the 90s, most of these lines would essentially be a scrum, just a mass of people putting their arms out.

Someone in Korea told me that before the 2002 World Cup they really made an effort to hammer some western-style conventions into people.

[Julius]

[PatrickGHBusan]

The King of Kwangju that was a fantastic post!

It is very interesting to read your take on Korea after being away from the country for such an extended period.

We go back every year so I in no way have that type of perspective so thanks for sharing your impressions!

[toby99]

Good post. Always interesting to hear about return trips from old vets. Couple questions: Did you venture into Itaewon? What sorts of changes did you notice there? And can you talk more about the changes you noticed within the expat community?

[The King of Kwangju]

Thanks for the kind words, guys.

Julius - the credit card thing was actually something that I really appreciated as a traveller. I didn't need to keep exchanging cash all the time.

I didn't get the feeling that service was "slower" by any means, but it's definitely faster and more courteous than service in NYC (which is pretty fast).

toby - I did indeed go to Itaewon, but in the 90s I was rarely there so it's hard to compare. But it is definitely more upscale now, and more varied. Back in the day it was a real cesspool. It was just not the kind of place you wanted to hang out in, and foreign food meant a hamburger and an Indian buffet. Now some of the restaurants are better, and some of the bars classier, even though there is still the same grit there if you are looking for it. Some of my old haunts are still standing.

I was amazed to see in Gwangju that there were Thai, Philippine, and Nepali restaurants being run by Thais, Philippinos, and Nepalis. This would have been unimaginable in the 90s. In general more foreigners were starting more businesses and working in non-teaching jobs, which was encouraging.

It's a funny thing, toby. In some ways the expat community was exactly the same as it was 11 years ago. I mean this in the best way. I met a lot of flakes with interesting stories who just kind of drifted into teaching in Korea. There were way more Americans than there were in the 90s; it's not such a Canadian game anymore.

I could walk into a "foreigner bar" and not know anyone, and spend hours there having a great time and meeting tons of people. This also happened in the 90s. The people I met were very similar to the ones I met in the 90s.

For some reason the expat community is still kind of uniformed when it comes to the host country, which I expected would have been eradicated with the internet. I talked to some people who had lived in Korea for years but had a shaky grasp of what was happening in the country they lived in. Also, it being easier to live in Korea (esp Seoul) and surviving on burritos and hotdogs, some people seemed to be living like Westerners in the heart of Korea.

In Gwangju there was a burgeoning arts scene, centering around Gwangju Kunsthalle, with all kinds of interesting things going on. And I came across more than one sports org that was having hockey, football games across the country. Both of these things were pretty much unheard of in the 90s.

[PatrickGHBusan]

Keep the perspective coming King! It is appreciated.

I can relate to a lot of what you said in terms of what has changed and what has not changed in Korea.

[Swampfox10mm]

[creeper1]

I read your opening post King of Gwangju.

Delicious Korean food - I don't get that. There are a couple dishes I like but your praise is over the top.

You still know Korean after having been away for so long? I would imagine your language ability would have atrophied big time.

[Zyzyfer]