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Epicurus
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: pretty interesting Huer column in Koreatimes |
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Huer has been slammed here often.
I'm curious if the slams will continue unabated after you read THIS column. It's too long to cut and paste so I will merely post the link.
I'm not qualified to judge whether he's right or wrong on his observations, but from what I've seen - he's pretty dead on in what he writes here.
Can We Ever Understand Korea?
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2009/08/272_49833.html |
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Forward Observer
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Location: FOB Gloria
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| With the exception of number 4, you could substitute (as he did mention) the Greeks for the Koreans and you'd get the same results. haha |
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Epicurus
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Forward Observer wrote: |
| With the exception of number 4, you could substitute (as he did mention) the Greeks for the Koreans and you'd get the same results. haha |
I've known Greeks stateside and I'd agree!
they are as "tribal" as Koreans (Serbs another good example)
However, their "culture" is far easier for Westerners to understand. Westerners still understand tribalism. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| His point #2 is complete rubbish. I really do wish he'd quit spouting nonsense on linguistic (and other) matters. The reality is that it's not the language, but rather the society's attitude about its language that interferes with so many of the populace "thinking outside their cultural orbit." |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Epicurus wrote: |
| However, their "culture" is far easier for Westerners to understand. Westerners still understand tribalism. |
Ah, I see you remember the famous line from STOS's Mirror, Mirror episode. |
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Epicurus
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| His point #2 is complete rubbish. I really do wish he'd quit spouting nonsense on linguistic (and other) matters. The reality is that it's not the language, but rather the society's attitude about its language that interferes with so many of the populace "thinking outside their cultural orbit." |
I'm inclined to grant you this point. |
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benji1422
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: Los Angeles & Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| LOL he is describing Jews and Muslims as well. Maybe this is why I "get it". Not that their group think and tribalism isn't annoying but at least I can comprehend the logic jump. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I enjoy Huer's columns at times, but often he seems to veer out of his depth-- he wrote a rather silly column a week ago making this extremely philosophical argument that suicide prevention is impossible, which made no sense.
Many people who bought Volkswagens when I was a boy, or even some Southern rednecks have a sort of anti-pride in being perverse or different. Huer's columns often exaggerate or romanticize the subject, and here also I think he fetishizes how different Koreans are. It is almost that he is bragging how exotic the people are.
We could find examples from anywhere in the world, I think, of the same points. How Japan and Japanese language are indistinguishable; how many cultures have a pre-nation state tribalness (Native Indians?) or exalt strong feeling over rationality (Don't answer!)?
I prefer to explain Korea in part as having an island mentality. I lived in Newfoundland for many years, and they also had this sort of martyr complex and hypersensitivity to outside criticism. I am not bashing NFLD because I loved living there, but I use it as an example to point out that here Huer, even when he is criticizing Korea, is still unable to look beyond it, even believing that its faults are unique.
Ken:> |
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asams
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
I enjoy Huer's columns at times, but often he seems to veer out of his depth-- he wrote a rather silly column a week ago making this extremely philosophical argument that suicide prevention is impossible, which made no sense.
Many people who bought Volkswagens when I was a boy, or even some Southern rednecks have a sort of anti-pride in being perverse or different. Huer's columns often exaggerate or romanticize the subject, and here also I think he fetishizes how different Koreans are. It is almost that he is bragging how exotic the people are.
We could find examples from anywhere in the world, I think, of the same points. How Japan and Japanese language are indistinguishable; how many cultures have a pre-nation state tribalness (Native Indians?) or exalt strong feeling over rationality (Don't answer!)?
I prefer to explain Korea in part as having an island mentality. I lived in Newfoundland for many years, and they also had this sort of martyr complex and hypersensitivity to outside criticism. I am not bashing NFLD because I loved living there, but I use it as an example to point out that here Huer, even when he is criticizing Korea, is still unable to look beyond it, even believing that its faults are unique.
Ken:> |
all I have to say is "Great avatar." |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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It's a terrible article and a perfect example of shoddy journalism. Why? Two things among many about this article:
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| 4. KOREA IS IMPENETRABLE TO WESTERNERS: Corollary to the above, 1 Koreans will never change their core beliefs and habits of mind, no matter what. 2 They are already famous for rejecting anything they regard as a criticism toward Korea, even if made in a friendly manner. |
1. To make a point, one should either elaborate on it to make sure it's clear or give examples. Mr. Huer does neither, leaving the reader (or is it just me?) asking: what does he mean? How does this contrast with people from other countries? Throughout the article, there is no answer.
2. When criticising Korea in a fair, objective manner, I've had lots of Koreans agree with me and open up about what bothers them about Korea. In fact, I'd say the close-minded type that refuses to admit any problems exist are in the distinct minority. |
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Epicurus
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
It's a terrible article and a perfect example of shoddy journalism. Why? Two things among many about this article:
| Quote: |
| 4. KOREA IS IMPENETRABLE TO WESTERNERS: Corollary to the above, 1 Koreans will never change their core beliefs and habits of mind, no matter what. 2 They are already famous for rejecting anything they regard as a criticism toward Korea, even if made in a friendly manner. |
1. To make a point, one should either elaborate on it to make sure it's clear or give examples. Mr. Huer does neither, leaving the reader (or is it just me?) asking: what does he mean? How does this contrast with people from other countries? Throughout the article, there is no answer.
2. When criticising Korea in a fair, objective manner, I've had lots of Koreans agree with me and open up about what bothers them about Korea. In fact, I'd say the close-minded type that refuses to admit any problems exist are in the distinct minority. |
re # 2, that's an interesting question.
You'd have to have developed fairly deep bonds of friendship and trust for a Korean to speak openly in such a matter.
Most people, nations and tribes are sensitive to any perceived criticism from foreigners and outsiders but Korea(ns) probably more than most. |
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GreenlightmeansGO
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Those who want to know about Korea, beware: You are about to encounter the strangest culture and people you probably have ever known, read about or faced. Korea, the ``strangest?'' Let's try to clarify the term ``strange.''
When we travel to a country we are not familiar with, let's say, to Nepal, Nigeria, or Japan, we find many things strange in these places. The way they do things in these countries is strange, indeed. But this ``strangeness'' is what makes visiting Nepal, Nigeria or Japan ``interesting.'' Things in these cultures and people are strange and this is precisely what makes traveling there worth doing. |
When 'clarifying' what you mean by a term, I thought it was a good idea not to use the term in your example or definition. How strange. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 4. KOREA IS IMPENETRABLE TO WESTERNERS: Corollary to the above, 1 Koreans will never change their core beliefs and habits of mind, no matter what. 2 They are already famous for rejecting anything they regard as a criticism toward Korea, even if made in a friendly manner. |
Yes, this is a good example of Huer's tendency to generalize and romanticize. He does not specify or give an example of what is a core belief or habit. Koreans do not generally wear Hanbok with knives and swords to work anymore; or is this just nicely explained away as not being a core belief or habit?
Granted, Koreans are very prickly about outside criticism. But what nation likes foreign criticism? Someone makes a film critical of the Chinese treatment of the Uigyurs, and they try to terrorize the festival. Bill Maher calls Americans stupid on air, and the station is bombarded with abusive e-mails telling him to leave. I've noticed even Canadians, who like to beat up their country, don't like it if outsiders do so.
Ken:> |
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GreenlightmeansGO
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I do believe good journalists should make sure of their facts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_country_has_the_highest_rate_of_plastic_surgeries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum
Now, I understand Wikipedia isn't the best place to fact-check, but I'm not going to go do hours of research. I do trust Wikipedia enough, however, to distrust what this 'journalist' has stated.
I wouldn't say that any of those claims are 'incomprehensible'. Coming to Korea is not like you're walking into the modeditted Twilight Zone.
| Quote: |
| ...most Koreans find it impossible to think objectively or rationally about themselves or others outside their society. |
I would like to see how he researched that one.
As for the idea of the Korean language and its 'cultural orbit', its not just 'tribalism' - there's plenty to read about all languages shaping your world and your beliefs.
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| In the deepest core of their emotional and tribalistic being, Koreans cannot and will not accept any outside critique of their culture and personality. Koreans cannot think objectively about themselves, their culture, or their place in the world. |
Really? I must have imagined those conversations about what my students and friends don't like about Korea. After all, it is impossible.
The comment about ignoring 'surface sophistication' (what the modedit is that?) and then saying they imitate the products is kind of contradicting himself, isn't it?
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| Among themselves, they are the noisiest, most quarrelsome, and most disagreeable people on earth, surely surpassing the Jews whose argumentativeness is world-famous. |
Did he really get that printed? Seriously?
Now, don't get me wrong, I've experienced some of the stuff he mentioned, but to say that it is impossible to change or to claim that Koreans are like the Borg is just plain dumb. |
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js99
Joined: 25 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| When criticising Korea in a fair, objective manner, I've had lots of Koreans agree with me and open up about what bothers them about Korea. In fact, I'd say the close-minded type that refuses to admit any problems exist are in the distinct minority. |
That is indeed very true- once you get to know a group of young 20-something Koreans, they tend to talk more freely about the pitfalls of living in Korean society.
Many of the youngsters I've talked to really want to emigrate away from Korea because they want to experience the social freedom that many westerners experience; such as parental and familial pressures that really prevents them from being true individuals and doing what they want.
I guess these individuals truly want to break free from that tribal bond that hold them innately |
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