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Modern Market Economy Brings Ruin
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Modern Market Economy Brings Ruin Reply with quote

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2012/05/139_110312.html

Renowned Harvard University Professor Michael J. Sandel will give a special lecture at Yonsei University�s open-air theater on June 1.

The theme of the lecture is markets and morals, which was the same subject of the opening lecture he gave for his course this semester called �Justice.�

The American political philosopher is well-known for teaching one of the most highly attended courses in Harvard�s history. About 15,000 students have enrolled in the course over the 20 years he has taught it.

His book, �Justice: What�s the Right Thing to Do?� was a 2010 New York Times best seller. His newest book, �What Money Can�t Buy: The Moral Limits of Markets,� was published last month.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/13/michael-j-sandel-market-society_n_1424733.html

In an excerpt of his book published by The Atlantic, Sandel cites several specific and unnerving examples of the creeping reach of markets, including a woman who earned $10,000 for having a company's Web address permanently tattooed on her forehead. She used the money to help pay for her son's education.

The problem with being able to buy and sell increasing numbers of things is that we devalue the things we are buying and selling -- including our foreheads, our health, our children's education, Sandel argues.

"The more things money can buy, the more the affluent can buy their way out," Sandel said. "The affluent lose a stake in the public sphere, and increasingly we lead separate lives."

"That's not good for democracy, and it's not a satisfying way to live," he added.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/04/15/what-money-can-t-buy-michael-sandel-on-market-moralism-run-amok.html

The book takes on what Sandel calls the �imperialism� of economic ideas. He thinks we�re in thrall to markets and use them to answer questions that markets aren�t meant to answer. �We are in the grip of a way of looking at the world and social life and even personal relations that is dominated by economic ways of thinking. That�s an impoverished way of looking at the world,� he says.

One would expect Wall Street to figure prominently in this book, but What Money Can�t Buy says almost nothing about it. Instead, he challenges all of us to look at how we�ve allowed markets to pervade our public life. He argues that the spread of market philosophy has created what he calls �a consumerist idea of freedom,� in which we think our highest freedom is what we consume. Our obsession with consumption limits our freedom to engage in a full civic life.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Typical socialist nonsense, this is the highest form of illogic and shouldn't be taught at any university that actually values knowledge and education. It's amazing that guys this dumb have college degrees at all.

All of our current economic and social problems are caused by too much government, too much socialism, too much involvement of the "public sphere" and too much "democracy" resulting in wars around the world, the teetering US world empire, thousands of dead US military personnel and hundreds of thousands of innocents in countries around the world, huge overconsumption of energy and world wide pollution due to totally misdirected infrastructure development on a socialist model, waste of trillions of dollars on the wrong infrastructure, massive inflation (the dollar has lost 99% of its value since the government created the Fed in 1913 for example), unemployment, under-employment, slow economic growth in the best times, recessions and depressions at other times, massive incarceration of innocent people (victimless crimes and the war on drugs), real crime rates up to 80% induced by failed government policies, massive government debt and failed government schools just to mention a few things.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
Typical socialist nonsense

+1
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recessiontime



Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all against socialism and all but can someone directly point out the profound illogical nonsense because I'm not seeing it (maybe because his statements are somewhat vague and can have different interpretations).
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stunning insights offered that the rich can buy their w ay out of trouble. Amazing. We devalue things by buying them???? Gibberish and jargon
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The Sultan of Seoul



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU

PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh noooooooo, wanting physical security is so bad for our morals... It's so... unatural... we should be free like the beasts in the field who don't care for plenty or safety, oh wait...
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Sultan of Seoul wrote:
Oh noooooooo, wanting physical security is so bad for our morals... It's so... unatural... we should be free like the beasts in the field who don't care for plenty or safety, oh wait...


And you are currently working for a chain hagwon in Shanghai using puppets and huge color flash cards so you are on top of the world. When you go out and try to find a real job maybe you'll begin to get clued in a bit.
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The Sultan of Seoul



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Chance wrote:
The Sultan of Seoul wrote:
Oh noooooooo, wanting physical security is so bad for our morals... It's so... unatural... we should be free like the beasts in the field who don't care for plenty or safety, oh wait...


And you are currently working for a chain hagwon in Shanghai using puppets and huge color flash cards so you are on top of the world. When you go out and try to find a real job maybe you'll begin to get clued in a bit.


My job is real, creates income and tax money and I highly enjoy it. I truly hope you can say the same.

Whatever.

Surely someone with 'a clue' such as you wouldn't respond in such a douchy and immature way in a current events forum to someone who simply didn't agree with their poorly constructed, naive and narrow take on socio-economic reality and history? Wink
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Sultan of Seoul wrote:
Dave Chance wrote:
The Sultan of Seoul wrote:
Oh noooooooo, wanting physical security is so bad for our morals... It's so... unatural... we should be free like the beasts in the field who don't care for plenty or safety, oh wait...


And you are currently working for a chain hagwon in Shanghai using puppets and huge color flash cards so you are on top of the world. When you go out and try to find a real job maybe you'll begin to get clued in a bit.


My job is real, creates income and tax money and I highly enjoy it. I truly hope you can say the same.

Whatever.

Surely someone with 'a clue' such as you wouldn't respond in such a douchy and immature way in a current events forum to someone who simply didn't agree with their poorly constructed, naive and narrow take on socio-economic reality and history? Wink


You are right, better to not respond to someone as erudite and accomplished as you, ye grande Puppet Master.

And I happen to make more money than you, working less hours, no puppets or flash cards in sight.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Chance wrote:
The Sultan of Seoul wrote:
Oh noooooooo, wanting physical security is so bad for our morals... It's so... unatural... we should be free like the beasts in the field who don't care for plenty or safety, oh wait...


And you are currently working for a chain hagwon in Shanghai using puppets and huge color flash cards so you are on top of the world. When you go out and try to find a real job maybe you'll begin to get clued in a bit.
...
And I happen to make more money than you, working less hours, no puppets or flash cards in sight.

Ok, so in addition to acting like a douche, you're not making any sense. Sultan obviously isn't concerned about capitalism's income inequality, but you're saying he should be because of his "not-real" job. Then you're desperately assuring us that you make a load of cash, but you're deeply concerned about income inequality.

I wonder if anyone has yet coined the term "Buffett complex"...
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
Dave Chance wrote:
The Sultan of Seoul wrote:
Oh noooooooo, wanting physical security is so bad for our morals... It's so... unatural... we should be free like the beasts in the field who don't care for plenty or safety, oh wait...


And you are currently working for a chain hagwon in Shanghai using puppets and huge color flash cards so you are on top of the world. When you go out and try to find a real job maybe you'll begin to get clued in a bit.
...
And I happen to make more money than you, working less hours, no puppets or flash cards in sight.

Ok, so in addition to acting like a douche, you're not making any sense. Sultan obviously isn't concerned about capitalism's income inequality, but you're saying he should be because of his "not-real" job. Then you're desperately assuring us that you make a load of cash, but you're deeply concerned about income inequality.

I wonder if anyone has yet coined the term "Buffett complex"...


Not a question of should or not, more like if you think everything's a waltz like doing puppet shows for the kiddies you may be disappointed at the post-edutainer reality.

I'm doing ok now but under no illusions about the challenges a lot of us will have to face due to the deveopments and environment that Sandel talks about.
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comm



Joined: 22 Jun 2010

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Chance wrote:
Not a question of should or not, more like if you think everything's a waltz like doing puppet shows for the kiddies you may be disappointed at the post-edutainer reality.

I'm doing ok now but under no illusions about the challenges a lot of us will have to face due to the deveopments and environment that Sandel talks about.

Now that makes a lot more sense (as well as being much less rude).
I strongly believe that technologically developed nations are going to face a crisis when computers/robotics are able to replace nearly all unskilled labor. Some people simply aren't going to be engineers, scientists, or skilled labor in new fields.

However, so long as these nations remain democratic republics, I think a stable solution will be established... That is, unless our sovereign debt is allowed to destroy us first.
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Dave Chance



Joined: 30 May 2011

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

comm wrote:
Dave Chance wrote:
Not a question of should or not, more like if you think everything's a waltz like doing puppet shows for the kiddies you may be disappointed at the post-edutainer reality.

I'm doing ok now but under no illusions about the challenges a lot of us will have to face due to the deveopments and environment that Sandel talks about.

Now that makes a lot more sense (as well as being much less rude).
I strongly believe that technologically developed nations are going to face a crisis when computers/robotics are able to replace nearly all unskilled labor. Some people simply aren't going to be engineers, scientists, or skilled labor in new fields.

However, so long as these nations remain democratic republics, I think a stable solution will be established... That is, unless our sovereign debt is allowed to destroy us first.


Hey, you took the words right off of the same page I'm looking at.

That's the thing, not so sure these nations are really democratic republics anymore, in the sense that we're on solid bedrock when we say that they are and shall remain so.

Agreed about the robots and hi-tech; why bother with pesky humans who get sick, complain, pull a runner, influence the kids in non-kosher ways etc., when you can just program a robot to do it exactly how you want it to be done?

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/pelletier20120422


Experts believe this could be the final straw driving society towards a work-free life From assembly line robots, to ATMs, to self-checkout terminals, each year automated systems take over more jobs formerly held by humans. Now, experts predict that many professional jobs are at risk. Teachers, doctors, and governing officials, could all be replaced by intelligent systems in the near future.

Could teachers become automation�s next victims? Economist Kim Shin-hwan at South Korea�s Hyundai Research Institute says, �By 2015, robots should be able to assist teachers in the classroom. By 2018, they should be able to teach on their own, and this will cause many teachers to lose their jobs.�

Will the quality of education remain the same, or might it even improve with robot teachers? Although the first robot models may appear clumsy and crude, experts predict future versions arriving in the 2020s will be fully capable of performing all the functions of a human teacher, and potentially a lot more.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Chance wrote:
comm wrote:
Dave Chance wrote:
Not a question of should or not, more like if you think everything's a waltz like doing puppet shows for the kiddies you may be disappointed at the post-edutainer reality.

I'm doing ok now but under no illusions about the challenges a lot of us will have to face due to the deveopments and environment that Sandel talks about.

Now that makes a lot more sense (as well as being much less rude).
I strongly believe that technologically developed nations are going to face a crisis when computers/robotics are able to replace nearly all unskilled labor. Some people simply aren't going to be engineers, scientists, or skilled labor in new fields.

However, so long as these nations remain democratic republics, I think a stable solution will be established... That is, unless our sovereign debt is allowed to destroy us first.


Hey, you took the words right off of the same page I'm looking at.

That's the thing, not so sure these nations are really democratic republics anymore, in the sense that we're on solid bedrock when we say that they are and shall remain so.

Agreed about the robots and hi-tech; why bother with pesky humans who get sick, complain, pull a runner, influence the kids in non-kosher ways etc., when you can just program a robot to do it exactly how you want it to be done?

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/pelletier20120422


Experts believe this could be the final straw driving society towards a work-free life From assembly line robots, to ATMs, to self-checkout terminals, each year automated systems take over more jobs formerly held by humans. Now, experts predict that many professional jobs are at risk. Teachers, doctors, and governing officials, could all be replaced by intelligent systems in the near future.

Could teachers become automation�s next victims? Economist Kim Shin-hwan at South Korea�s Hyundai Research Institute says, �By 2015, robots should be able to assist teachers in the classroom. By 2018, they should be able to teach on their own, and this will cause many teachers to lose their jobs.�

Will the quality of education remain the same, or might it even improve with robot teachers? Although the first robot models may appear clumsy and crude, experts predict future versions arriving in the 2020s will be fully capable of performing all the functions of a human teacher, and potentially a lot more.



There is not a chance in Hades that a robot will be capable of replacing a human teacher - that is a real human teacher who is actually performing all of a teacher's functions - by the early or late 2020s. The day may come, maybe in the 2120s, but there are still too many elements that are not programmable.

Moreover, there will always be work to do that needs to be performed by humans, so there will always be jobs available. This is a good thing, because it means that those individuals who haven't inherited or earned a nestegg large enough to live on will have the opportunity to work and accumulate assets.

One of the curses of the foolish idea of socialism is that it prevents the peaceful, natural transition to a world of plenty, where the essentials of life are available to all and economic resource scarcity is about resource allocation and conservation rather than survival, where short work weeks prevail for all who want them, and the bulk of humanity lives beyond the lifestyle of today's multimillionaires.

Poverty, unemployment, pollution, low quality education, the 99% devaluation of the dollar under the Federal Reserve - these are all products of socialism.

Humanity needs accumulations of wealth far beyond what we have today. We need to encourage the world's wealthy to make and accumulate more and to conserve this wealth for their descendants and whosoever they wish to transfer the wealth to upon their deaths. We should never tax incomes, assets or wealth as these are things that are scarce and we need to encourage.
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The Sultan of Seoul



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Experts believe this could be the final straw driving society towards a work-free life From assembly line robots, to ATMs, to self-checkout terminals, each year automated systems take over more jobs formerly held by humans. Now, experts predict that


'Experts eh!' 'Experts' nobody has ever heard of, proclaimed by some fringe organisation website.. hmmm...

No offense, but this is a CE forum, we're supposed to take your discussion seriously when all you proffer forth are opaque, confused prosaic rationals based on immature, half baked ideologies and fringe associations..?


(Of course, I don't deserve to be taken seriously either, as I teach kindy kids for a living.)
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