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Grammar Question (as if + is/were)

 
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raewon



Joined: 16 Jun 2009

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Grammar Question (as if + is/were) Reply with quote

I have a question about the following sentences:

(1) It looks as if it were going to snow. = In fact, it isn't going to snow.

(2) It looks as if it is going to snow. = In fact, it isn't going to snow.


Are both (1) and (2) possible, or should only (2) be used? If
(1) is possible, what is the grammatical name of that structure?

Thanks a lot.
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Hokie21



Joined: 01 Mar 2011

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. doesn't sound right. I'm guessing you'd have to change "looks" to "looked"
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Grammar Question (as if + is/were) Reply with quote

raewon wrote:
I have a question about the following sentences:

(1) It looks as if it were going to snow. = In fact, it isn't going to snow.

(2) It looks as if it is going to snow. = In fact, it isn't going to snow.


Are both (1) and (2) possible, or should only (2) be used? If
(1) is possible, what is the grammatical name of that structure?

Thanks a lot.


Hello Raewon,

I am not sure about your context...=In fact, it isn't going to snow.

The reason for this confusion is that depending on what you mean by that...then both are possible.

If your context in both 1 and 2 "=In fact, it isn't going to snow" is based on it was likely to...or was possible...but won't...then only 2 is correct.

However, if your context can imply...In fact, it isn't going to snow because it is impossible...or highly improbable...then 1 can be correct...but highly formal and also grammatically confusing.

But, it would be called the 2nd conditional subjunctive mood.
It looks as if it were going to snow.

(ie...it is mid July in Korea...snow is impossible...but the sky looks like it might...but it won't...it cant....it is 33 degrees celcius...but it looks like it)
Then the 'were'...in subjunctive mood...not past tense...is implying that even though it looks like it might snow...it won't...it is most improbable...or even impossible.)

Note.
As a teacher, I would be careful with that one...the subjunctive and the past tense of 'were' in that sentence would be confusing...even to the most flexible grammarian.
Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with that construction.

If you were looking for the 'better' sentence...2 is it by far.
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Hokie, should be looked. Also:

1. "looks as if" = "looks like" it will
2. "looked as if" = "looked like" it was

Now this brings up an interesting question.

3. It looked like the person was going to fly.
4. It looked as if the person were going to fly.

We usually use "were" for things that are less probable or impossible, like in example 4.

However, in this case "looked as if it were" apparently has the same meaning as "looked like it was". Anyone else have a different viewpoint? Why are "was" and "were" being used the same way? Is this simply overlap?
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YTMND wrote:
However, in this case "looked as if it were" apparently has the same meaning as "looked like it was". Anyone else have a different viewpoint? Why are "was" and "were" being used the same way? Is this simply overlap?

Not an overlap...but can be viewed as one...which is what I mentioned in my post above.
Some pretty tricky waters when dealing with this construction.
In conditionals...the subjunctive ('were' in this case) is used to denote the improbable nature of the event.

To make it even more confusing for overlap...change person to people.(3rd person plural)
Now...does 'were' simply imply tense...or also the subjunctive?
It looked as if the people were going to fly.

Of course the context dictates...but can still be confusing.
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Zackback



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Number 2 is the one to use colloquially--people might say both:

These are indicative sentences because of " It looks ........................................................................The "it looks" makes it present tense. So the main verb in both sentences is " It looks ."

The "as if it ................................................." is an adverbial subordinate clause introduced by the " as if" which serves as a subordinate conjunction in both (1) and (2).

The main verb in the second sentence ( 2) is also ' IT LOOKS and the word " not" is always an ADVERB when qualifying the verb. This verb is in the indicative tense.

The second part after the = of each starting with " In fact" are just simple sentences in the present tense (indicative) of the verb "is going" with the word " NOT" in the contraction " isn't " really being an ADVERB. ( Whenever a verb is contracted- that means put together in a shorter form with "not", not is still an adverb. The word "not" when contracted with a verb, NEVER becomes part of the verb grammatically --it is always considered an adverb !!!


" to snow" is an infinitive and is not the verb of any sentence.

Now the word "it" is also the subject of the subordinate adverbial clause but the "as if" in the samples introduce a possibility factor which technically calls for a subjunctive mood in the verb following, so the grammatically correct sentence is number ( 1 ) which shows the verb as " were" because you need a subjunctive mood .
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YTMND



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The second part after the = of each starting with " In fact" are just simple sentences in the present tense (indicative) of the verb "is going" with the word " NOT" in the contraction " isn't " really being an ADVERB. ( Whenever a verb is contracted- that means put together in a shorter form with "not", not is still an adverb. The word "not" when contracted with a verb, NEVER becomes part of the verb grammatically --it is always considered an adverb !!!


Does this explanation work when explaining it to students?
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sojusucks



Joined: 31 May 2008

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see bad English all the time in text books and on tests. There are programs specifically designed to teach Korean teachers how to teach English (in Korean), but it seems these courses are not popular.
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