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Saudiman
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: About returning to Korea after bad experience |
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I taught in the EPIK program in one of the provinces in 2006-2007. Exactly midway through the contract, I had a sharp disagreeement with an older female co-teacher in front of students. Specifically, she had made it clear that she disliked me earlier, and she walked into the class I was teaching and accused me in front of the students of cussing in the cafeteria two months earlier, which I didn't do. When I kept trying to teach, she kept interrupting and accusing me. We ended up shouting at each other, and I was asked not to return to that particular school - I was teaching in 4 schools at the time and it didn't affect my placements with the others.
If the same thing were to happen today and I was placed in a no-win situation like that, I would give up after two attempts and tell her she could teach the class that day and I would discuss it with her and the principal later, and leave for the teachers' room without another word.
I finished the contract, but as soon as I tried to apply for other positions, the coordinator started accusing me of terrible things related to this incident, six months later. When I returned to visit almost 2 years later, he was still very angry at me and wouldn't communicate.
I took a position at a university that is not very well liked in Daegu shortly thereafter, and was told that the co-teacher had seen my photo in a news release for a project I was doing. It didn't take long for the director of that program to start challenging all my references and my resume (which was completely accurate) and I was gone after 4 months. It was a horrible experience.
What amazes me about Koreans is how they seem to hold grudges and how gossipy they are about others.
Wondering how to play this stuff down if I wanted to return in mid-2013? Do I even have a chance? I know I can't teach in EPIK and wouldn't want to. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| When I kept trying to teach, she kept interrupting and accusing me. We ended up shouting at each other, and I was asked not to return to that particular school - I was teaching in 4 schools at the time and it didn't affect my placements with the others. |
Well, that was a rookie mistake. That was the whole point. They wanted you to get the students to worry and then have that domino into the parents wanting you out. You played into their trap.
I would have just laughed and then continued the lesson. If she had continued, I would have quietly walked out and talked to her. I would have made funny faces through the window to the students to keep them laughing. At no point would I have argued back. She would have looked like a witch in contrast.
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| I finished the contract, but as soon as I tried to apply for other positions, the coordinator started accusing me of terrible things related to this incident, six months later. When I returned to visit almost 2 years later, he was still very angry at me and wouldn't communicate. |
Why are you working with the same coordinator? Get a new school, new manager, new owner, move on. Something new.
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| Wondering how to play this stuff down if I wanted to return in mid-2013? Do I even have a chance? I know I can't teach in EPIK and wouldn't want to. |
Why don't you just do a hagwon job? Start simple. You don't have to do EPIK EPIK EPIK (nothing but EPIK). You are being too confrontational and Asians are seeing it. They don't like confrontational people. |
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overdrive2023x
Joined: 08 Aug 2011
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Why would you want to return to Korea after all of that? |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Image: The earth. The enemy is the ground beneath your feet. It has the gravity that holds you in place, a force of resistance. Root yourself deep in this earth to gain firmness and strength. Without an enemy to walk upon, to trample, you lose your bearings and all sense of proportion.
Authority: If you count on safety and do not think of danger, if you do not know enough to be wary when enemies arrive, this is called a sparrow nesting on a tent, a fish swimming in a cauldron - they won't last the day.
--Chuko Liang
Remember: There are always people out there who are more aggressive, more devious, more ruthless than you are, and it is inevitable that you will cross paths with them. You will have a tendency to to want to conciliate and compromise with them. The reason is that such types are often brilliant deceivers who see the strategic value of charm or in seeming to allow you plenty of space, but actually their desires have no limit...
*ModEdit of extremely long link |
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Paddycakes
Joined: 05 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| overdrive2023x wrote: |
| Why would you want to return to Korea after all of that? |
Exactly.... the OP clearly clashes with Asian culture.
Time to head home and re-tool and move into a new industry. |
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ethanshin
Joined: 28 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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hahahahahah nothing has changed here.
If you didn't like it before, you won't like it now. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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The naysayers here need to stop rubbishing saudiman. EVERYBODY has problems at some stage in their working lives everywhere, not just Korea, and it isn't necessarily the foreigners' fault in closed cultures that rely on fixing outsiders as the lowest part of the structure.
I've worked with aggressive Koreans and no, it wasn't my fault they attempted to make me lose face with students while simultaneously expecting foreigners to behave as if the Korean deserved utmost respect while they deserved none because they were not part of Korean society.
My tactic was just to wait it out and deal with them in their own passive-agressive ways but I don't blame the OP for taking the bait. It's easily done especially when you're isolated in a Korean organisation.
I just heard a horror story from a credible person who was the only foreigner at their hagwon. This good hearted, open person came up against nasty powerplays among Korean women and the 'friend' they made among their Korean co teachers ended up knifing them to stay in the power dynamic.
Saudiman - don't listen to the rubbish that it's all over. Find another job, this time around you'll be aware of what nasty/mentally and emotionally troubled Korean co workers are capable of. Come back with lessons learned. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
Saudiman - don't listen to the rubbish that it's all over. Find another job, this time around you'll be aware of what nasty/mentally and emotionally troubled Korean co workers are capable of. Come back with lessons learned. |
Problem is that for most jobs you need references. And if you've taught in Korea before (which would be very easy to verify) they want Korean references. Which are not likely to be positive (if those are his jobs above).
Also he's taught at at least 2 jobs in Korea before...neither one which he was happy at (according to the OP). The second time around (when he should have been aware of what troubled Korean co-workers are capable of....according to you) he still only lasted 4 months.
Sure third time could be lucky..but then again it could not. |
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Spice
Joined: 01 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: Don't you just love it? |
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Don't you just love getting up as the only one calm in the midst of all the rush over here, sip on your espresso and soak in all the misunderstandings awaiting your day's progress? Love it!!
Spice. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: About returning to Korea after bad experience |
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| Saudiman wrote: |
| What amazes me about Koreans is how they seem to hold grudges and how gossipy they are about others. |
I agree with this. They hold grudges like nobody else. And as for gossiping, there seems to be no shame in it at all. When I hear gossip at my school about Korean staff members, I just know that I'm the target of unflattering gossip too. More than once I've walked into the teachers' room and had the talking suddenly stop.
As for the grudges. "Holy passive-aggressive behavior Batman'. Smile and be friendly, then put all the knives you have into the foreigner's back.
An unfortunate part of the culture. |
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MetaFitX
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: About returning to Korea after bad experience |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
I agree with this. They hold grudges like nobody else. And as for gossiping, there seems to be no shame in it at all. When I hear gossip at my school about Korean staff members, I just know that I'm the target of unflattering gossip too. More than once I've walked into the teachers' room and had the talking suddenly stop.
As for the grudges. "Holy passive-aggressive behavior Batman'. Smile and be friendly, then put all the knives you have into the foreigner's back.
An unfortunate part of the culture. |
Koreans don't hold grudges anymore or any less than other nationalities. And to be honest, A LOT of foreigners bring it upon themselves by doing the following:
1) Not taking care of their appearance (leads to gossip)
2) Refusing to assimiliate into the culture and learn Korean (leads to isolation and gossip about that guy who refuses to participate in the local customs)
3) Having a lack of work ethic (leads to resentment and gossip)
If you don't do the above (as any foreigner in Korea SHOULD...this is Korea it isn't the West you should adapt you are a guest here)....I would bet that any gossip about you (in a negative way) will be VERY small. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:55 am Post subject: MetaFitx is swaddled in cottonwool |
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| MetaFitX wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
I agree with this. They hold grudges like nobody else. And as for gossiping, there seems to be no shame in it at all. When I hear gossip at my school about Korean staff members, I just know that I'm the target of unflattering gossip too. More than once I've walked into the teachers' room and had the talking suddenly stop.
As for the grudges. "Holy passive-aggressive behavior Batman'. Smile and be friendly, then put all the knives you have into the foreigner's back.
An unfortunate part of the culture. |
Koreans don't hold grudges anymore or any less than other nationalities. And to be honest, A LOT of foreigners bring it upon themselves by doing the following:
1) Not taking care of their appearance (leads to gossip)
2) Refusing to assimiliate into the culture and learn Korean (leads to isolation and gossip about that guy who refuses to participate in the local customs)
3) Having a lack of work ethic (leads to resentment and gossip)
If you don't do the above (as any foreigner in Korea SHOULD...this is Korea it isn't the West you should adapt you are a guest here)....I would bet that any gossip about you (in a negative way) will be VERY small. |
How many mountains of cottonwool do you live enswaddled in during your time in Korea?
This is the most gossiping, heirarchical-establishing, relegating others to outsider status in daily life, jealous society I've ever lived in. I've lived in Japan, Taiwan, France, Ireland, Australia, and Germany. I've worked in Japan, Taiwan, France and Australia. I've studied in Ireland and Germany.
Lived - not been for a brief vacation. I'm a male Brit in his 30s. I live and work in Korea. While I agree with the Urban Myth's points about saudiman and have re-thought my advice to him, you can be the nicest waygug on planet earth and run up against first grade nastiness, pettiness, envy and slander in your job here like nothing else I've experienced. Anywhere.
All workplaces all over the world have backstabbers, gossipers, jealous gits ready to put somebody else in their perceived 'place'. Korea and Koreans are no different but the intensity is far worse here because of the culture that strongly emphasises Koreans stick together against outsiders even when Koreans are wrong.
Many waygugs with perception as opposed to those who are not good at understanding what is going on in their workplace see that no matter how good they are at their job or decent and generous to their Korean co workers, if an issue comes up that's that - the Koreans band together. The waygug is not considered equal under any circumstances whether that is explicitly stated or not.
If you are friendly with Korean co workers and another Korean co worker makes trouble for you, forget about your co worker's support. They are not loyal to you no matter how good you are to them - they fall in line with the heirarchy and in that heirarchy you are always at the bottom and excluded from vital information and genuine respect. No matter how good your Korean is. No matter if you hang out with your Korean co workers.
In fact the ladies often have it worse because Korean women are far more jealous and insistent on imposing heirarchies and borders. I've heard from not a few waygug ladies about how their 'friendships' with Korean female co workers took a dive because the 'friend' prioritised other Koreans. So when the other Koreans were not happy that one of them was hanging out with the waygug teacher, the friendship stopped.
Yes, it's rubbish but that is the reality. A lot of the worst attitude comes from the young ones, meaning Korean co workers under 35 Korean age. As a man I've been able to distance myself from the rotten behaviour of Korean female co workers but I've witnessed what they did to a waygug female co worker.
All the official line about global mindsets, internationalisation etc can't disguise the fact that most Koreans in the workplace want you there completely on their terms including when you supposedly have a friendship with your co workers.
Do you know anything about the culture of 'face' that exists here? This face saving is far more unreasonable than that I experienced in both Taiwan and Japan. That is another reason why any foreigner can't win under certain circumstances in Korean society especially as a foreign teacher in a hagwon or public school.
Some workplaces in Korea are fine, some are not. But the pressures exerted by Koreans on each other and then likewise the ones passed down to the foreigner make working in Korea a lottery, more so than in other places in my book. You don't have to do a damn thing wrong to put somebody's back up. At my last hagwon there was bitterness from a woman about 32 that I had lived so many places and came from the UK.
Koreans generally envy the freedom in othercultures but then have to compensate by telling themselves that their culture is superior and they must all back each other up against foreigners - meanwhile doing things like learning English and break dancing/rapping, living abroad for any number of years but coming back with very little change in outlook in too many cases.
And something that seems a constant - English speaking Koreans working in schools or hagwons aren't necessarily the open minded, genuinely friendly ones. There are many who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. It's harder to pick them than the outright xenophobic, overly nationalistic or plain 'foreigners are a bother' Koreans. |
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nero
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:19 am Post subject: |
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^^^^^
Great post. It seems the pressure, the superficiality and the culture of 'face' causes a lot of passive-aggressive venting. Take it out on the lowest on the totem pole, the one who can't understand you so can't fight back.
I worked in Thailand and must say my co-workers were quite gossipy there, too. I ripped into an old bag (I didn't understand what she was saying but I could infer, and I pretended I understood every word). I said "I think you are being very rude and very disrespectful."
It put the shits right up her.
"Oh, I am just joking! It is a Thai joke!" She said.
I refused to speak with her again for the rest of the dinner. This fat old bag was bitching to everyone about how much food my western co-worker (young, slim) had eaten at dinner! (she had eaten a normal amount!)
The old bag followed me around for the next couple of days trying to give me little gifts. I am so glad I called her out on it. But thankfully she was the exception not the rule. |
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Saudiman
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Just to let you know, I WAS happy with the position I had at EPIK, in Gangwon Province. I loved teaching the kids, and they were respectful to me. I felt sad for a lot of them because I knew they weren't getting the advantages in education and other things that the city kids were receiving. And every school I taught at during that year except for the one I mentioned treated me very well. Of all the co-teachers I had, only that one caused me any trouble.
Well, maybe not. My lead co-teacher could be both friendly and harsh, often depending on alcohol. There was a restaurant across the road from that school and sometimes he'd come back from lunch drunk enough that he would run into things and once fell down in the classroom while teaching with me. After that little incident, he wouldn't let me co-teach with him in the afternoon class if he had been drinking at lunch.
Just prior to that classroom incident with that female teacher, I got a bad case of pinkeye and had to stay home for two weeks. This was certified by a Korean doctor in Yeongwol, and my co-teachers saw my eyes themselves, yet I was seen as lazy because I didn't go into work! I wasn't allowed to as it was contagious. I was paid and used all my sick days, but they couldn't see the difference between staying home so I wouldn't infect kids and being lazy. I couldn't believe they could be that ignorant.
No, I had a wonderful time up there in Yeongwol-gun. I'll never forget those kids and am glad I took so many photos.
I would have stayed for another year if given the chance. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: MetaFitx is swaddled in cottonwool |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| MetaFitX wrote: |
Koreans don't hold grudges anymore or any less than other nationalities. And to be honest, A LOT of foreigners bring it upon themselves by doing the following:
1) Not taking care of their appearance (leads to gossip)
2) Refusing to assimiliate into the culture and learn Korean (leads to isolation and gossip about that guy who refuses to participate in the local customs)
3) Having a lack of work ethic (leads to resentment and gossip) |
How many mountains of cottonwool do you live enswaddled in during your time in Korea?
This is the most gossiping, heirarchical-establishing, relegating others to outsider status in daily life, jealous society I've ever lived in. I've lived in Japan, Taiwan, France, Ireland, Australia, and Germany. I've worked in Japan, Taiwan, France and Australia. I've studied in Ireland and Germany.
Lived - not been for a brief vacation. I'm a male Brit in his 30s. I live and work in Korea. While I agree with the Urban Myth's points about saudiman and have re-thought my advice to him, you can be the nicest waygug on planet earth and run up against first grade nastiness, pettiness, envy and slander in your job here like nothing else I've experienced. Anywhere.
All workplaces all over the world have backstabbers, gossipers, jealous gits ready to put somebody else in their perceived 'place'. Korea and Koreans are no different but the intensity is far worse here because of the culture that strongly emphasises Koreans stick together against outsiders even when Koreans are wrong.
Many waygugs with perception as opposed to those who are not good at understanding what is going on in their workplace see that no matter how good they are at their job or decent and generous to their Korean co workers, if an issue comes up that's that - the Koreans band together. The waygug is not considered equal under any circumstances whether that is explicitly stated or not.
If you are friendly with Korean co workers and another Korean co worker makes trouble for you, forget about your co worker's support. They are not loyal to you no matter how good you are to them - they fall in line with the heirarchy and in that heirarchy you are always at the bottom and excluded from vital information and genuine respect. No matter how good your Korean is. No matter if you hang out with your Korean co workers.
In fact the ladies often have it worse because Korean women are far more jealous and insistent on imposing heirarchies and borders. I've heard from not a few waygug ladies about how their 'friendships' with Korean female co workers took a dive because the 'friend' prioritised other Koreans. So when the other Koreans were not happy that one of them was hanging out with the waygug teacher, the friendship stopped.
Yes, it's rubbish but that is the reality. A lot of the worst attitude comes from the young ones, meaning Korean co workers under 35 Korean age. As a man I've been able to distance myself from the rotten behaviour of Korean female co workers but I've witnessed what they did to a waygug female co worker.
All the official line about global mindsets, internationalisation etc can't disguise the fact that most Koreans in the workplace want you there completely on their terms including when you supposedly have a friendship with your co workers.
Do you know anything about the culture of 'face' that exists here? This face saving is far more unreasonable than that I experienced in both Taiwan and Japan. That is another reason why any foreigner can't win under certain circumstances in Korean society especially as a foreign teacher in a hagwon or public school.
Some workplaces in Korea are fine, some are not. But the pressures exerted by Koreans on each other and then likewise the ones passed down to the foreigner make working in Korea a lottery, more so than in other places in my book. You don't have to do a damn thing wrong to put somebody's back up. At my last hagwon there was bitterness from a woman about 32 that I had lived so many places and came from the UK.
Koreans generally envy the freedom in other cultures but then have to compensate by telling themselves that their culture is superior and they must all back each other up against foreigners - meanwhile doing things like learning English and break dancing/rapping, living abroad for any number of years but coming back with very little change in outlook in too many cases.
And something that seems a constant - English speaking Koreans working in schools or hagwons aren't necessarily the open minded, genuinely friendly ones. There are many who talk the talk but don't walk the walk. It's harder to pick them than the outright xenophobic, overly nationalistic or plain 'foreigners are a bother' Koreans. |
earthquakez,
That was a superb post! You summed it up very nicely.
MetaFitX,
We cannot assimilate into Korean culture. Regardless of how proficient you are in the Korean language, and you could live here for 50 years, you will never assimilate into Korean culture.
Let's face it, teaching English in Korea was never meant to be a career. It's designed to be nothing more than a 1 - 3 year working holiday for Canadians. And Koreans don't want you here forever. |
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