Korean Job Discussion Forums

[mithridates]

Just a thought...there's the odd discussion here from time to time about how the arbitrary levels hagwons assign have nothing to do with real English ability, and same for a lot of the tests. One can find a person at xxx hagwon level 5, the high level class, but it turns out that he/she can't speak a lick of English and the hagwon is just using these levels to make money and sell textbooks. In short, English ability and test score/classroom level aren't necessarily equivalent.

The next question that follows is this: is one being hypocritical when it comes to other areas? Would a company that is looking for somebody with an M.A. be brave enough to hire a high school dropout if this person just happened to be really, really good at the job, better than any of the other M.A.'s interviewed? If natural ability is what's important, why have degrees at all; aren't they just a distraction and a hindrance in getting to know what a person really is worth? Is it wrong to put requirements like '5 years experience', 'M.A. in xxxx', 'accreditation in xxx field', 'minimum test score of xxx' when interviewing people?

Two thoughts brought this to mind: the famous Indian mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan:

"Srinivasa Ramanujan was born in 1887 near Madras, in India. India was largely a poor country, and Ramanujan's family could not afford to educate him. He had no library of books, or other resource material, and was unaware of the centuries of mathematical ideas and discoveries which had preceeded his birth. The only exposure he had to modern Western mathematics was one small, obscure book of mathematics.
On his own, he rediscovered Euler's identity relating trigonometric functions and exponentials. Using the obscure theorems in his one small mathematics book as a starting point, he developed his own formulas.
He was able to win a scholarship to high school, but found that he was already well beyond what was being taught, and dropped out. Eventually he landed a low-paying clerk's job which didn't demand too much of his time, and began to devote himself to exploring mathematical ideas.
Without any awareness of what had already been discovered by European mathematicians, he re-derived many of the previous century's discoveries completely on his own. What hundreds of other mathematicians had contributed to the field during the previous hundred years, he discovered on his own, all by himself ."


The second thought that brought this to mind was seeing Gattaca again last week.

[mithridates]

I also haven't gotten any answers from some of the people I've seen talking about the value of English as a useful language vs. a mere subject as to whether they would be courageous enough as the manager or president of a company to hire somebody without any qualifications just because they seem like they would be better suited for the job or have a natural talent for it.
Imagine this: you have 100 applicants for your law firm and one of them is a high school dropout, who also has the bar exam and the workings of the legal system memorized inside and out. He couldn't be bothered to take the test though, says it's beneath him. Obviously smarter than the others (maybe lacking in common sense for not going through with the test), but if you hire him you run the risk of looking bad for hiring somebody without the requisite education.

[phaedrus]

I would hire the person with no credentials depending on the work. If it was a one on one type position okay, but if it was a public position probably not. A credential is an immediate way to tell if a person is 'qualified' and I wouldn't want to hire someone without credentials if they would be under public view and open for criticism. Not everyone would know my reasons for hiring them. Of course, if the work was such that excellence is clearly visible, then okay.

[ulsanchris]

IF the guy doesn't want to take the Bar exam because its beneath him, then I think I wouldn't hire because he most likely has an arrogant attitude.

[Tiger Beer]

Unfortunately and sadly.. society works on the rules of society. The best man doesn�t always get the job.. its the one who played all of societies rules and did everything like he was suppose to do.

Classic example. Take street kids of Brazil for example. They have no education.. but their psychological abilities to survive are quite high.. they can run any $$ thing in their head with a calculator.. they know all the tricks and corners and all the street survival type stuff.

Put them in a classroom and they�ll probably fail miserably in math.. and almost everything. But they know how to survive and the things they learned in life is immense compared to others.

But society has a way of honoring almost ONLY those who play by its rules. If you want to do so-and-so.. you gotta have this and that and done this other thing and everything else. However, if someone can break through those things, and it does happen at times.. namely I�m thinking of politicians who are perceived as from the people.. Bandit Queen of India (can�t recall her true name) comes to mind who seem to have broken the rules and still make it.. they are highly rewarded. Although actually that woman was assassinated recently.

But anyhow.. generally.. painfully so.. its generally those who play by all the rules almost boringly so who get the best that society offers. Doesn�t seem fare to me either.

I use to do powerpoint and other visual presentations on computer for investment bankers at Goldman Sachs in New York City years ago. Some of those up-and-coming guys were every bit worthy of where they were at.. but others were totally and complete numbskulls. It always irked me to see some complete numbskill who somehow had the qualifications but seemed to lack in every other aspect seemingly miserably.. but there he was in the position.

Regarding Mithridates question about the Law Firm.. there is no way they could hire the high school dropout if that person was viewed publicly as a public figure. It could do some irrepairable damage to the image of their firm. The only way is if that high school dropout had a public name like Erin Brockovich or whatever her name was.. but generally the Law Firm would tell that person to go get their creditentials and come back to them later.

Also, generally.. if that person was saying he�s too good to pass the bar exam and all these other challenges.. that would very highly probably be a huge indicator that it is someone you wouldn�t want to work with or deal with either. Just seems like he is incapable of playing the games by the rules. So therefore undesireable. The Law profession in particular needs impeccable rule players.

[Mashimaro]

I've thought for a long while the best way to get 'ahead' in the world is to be mediocre. If you are too smart the education system doesn't cater for you and you only intimidate mentally inferior people. You have to be smart enough to keep your mouth shut and kiss ass appropriately, but beyond that it's just wasted brain cells.

[mithridates]

On the other hand, there are a rare few people that are qualified or overqualified for a position but then don't write that on the resume in order to 'screen' for a good employer. Kind of like how a rich person may pretend to be middle class in order to find someone that likes him for his personality above all else.
That comment about being mediocre is also true...imagine a person who had worked 20 years as a diplomat in the UN trying to get a job at a hagwon; most people wouldn't believe him or might suspect that he has gone a little nuts in applying for something so 'beneath' him. Kind of like the scene in American Beauty where Kevin Spacey applies for the job at the fast food restaurant.

[Tiger Beer]

[jajdude]

Just thinking about how so many do not get the opportunities others may take for granted, due to birthplace or parents or whatever, has reminded me of a poem


==========================================
From Thomas Gray's "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard":


Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
Full many a flow'r is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.
==========================================



Just thought I'd throw it in.

[coolsage]

It's all about boots on the ground; quantity, not quality. The more white faces that a school can display, the more the visor-wearing mothers are impressed. And the first guy to ever eat a lobster must have been desperately hungry.

[Tiger Beer]

One thing I did notice however.. is when college degrees were more scarce.. like people who came of age in the 1950s.. it seemed like with a college degree.. their choices were limitless. They could do nearly anything they wanted with anything.

I took a marketing field trip to New York City when I was in university. The older generation of people had a vast array of regular college degrees. Most younger people seem to have to be very specialized and doing internships after all those specializations just with the hopes of getting into the field they spent many years studying already.

[Thunndarr]

And I would have to go with pragmatism were I in charge of hiring at my company. Which means I assume that the vast majority of people are not, and will never be, geniuses. And also that, without any other way to measure a persons worth, a college degree is as good a barometer as any.