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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
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Yes, yes and yes.
Personally, since I'm married to a local, there's more of a gray area. But I'm speaking as an expat in general. |
Then it's no surprise you have readily accepted the narrow viewpoint that some Koreans have and claim is their "culture".
Thankfully not all Koreans, and not all foreigners, are willing to accept "culture" as a coverall excuse for a multitude of sins. |
Mind elaborating on what these"multitude of sins" are that Koreans are committing? |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Not reading all this thread at this point but I'd like to say that this statement:
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And, yes, there are price controls on private education in Korea but it is rarely followed and rarely enforced.
The Korean private education system may be dejure regulated but defacto it is pretty laize fare.
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,is like saying there are no speed limits or enforcement there of in the U.S. because I observed a stretch of highway where people were obviously speeding.
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mind elaborating on what these"multitude of sins" are that Koreans are committing? |
I'm going to go and watch my tv shows so this will be the last post.
Some of the sins relate to the racism and xenophobia that some Koreans show towards foreigners. I can't understand your attempts to somehow play it down by giving examples of racism in Southern USA. Wherever it occurs racism is disgusting, unacceptable, and unjustifiable.
Have a look at the latest anti-foreigner tat and tell us again about how we should try to understand the culture:
http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/2013/04/for-jtbc-consensual-sex-between-white.html |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
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| Mind elaborating on what these"multitude of sins" are that Koreans are committing? |
I'm going to go and watch my tv shows so this will be the last post.
Some of the sins relate to the racism and xenophobia that some Koreans show towards foreigners. I can't understand your attempts to somehow play it down by giving examples of racism in Southern USA. Wherever it occurs racism is disgusting, unacceptable, and unjustifiable.
Have a look at the latest anti-foreigner tat and tell us again about how we should try to understand the culture:
http://populargusts.blogspot.kr/2013/04/for-jtbc-consensual-sex-between-white.html |
I wasn't trying to play down the racism that exists in Korea. I was responding to stevieg4ever's comment that racism in Korea was the most blatent, frequent and socially acceptable of any country he'd heard of.
I agree, racism is generally a bad thing. However, you have to see that the end result produces what some cultures percieve as benefits, i.e. keeping a pure bloodline and bringing its people closer together/united to fight against the common enemy. These are things that were very important and played a much bigger role in Korea over the last 4,000 years. This is, again, also a trait of a collectivist culture.
It is going to take TIME to shake these old world views. The US, and again the South, were MUCH more racist 50 years ago than they are today. Korea was much more racist 20 years ago than it is today. It will be much LESS racist 20 years from now. As the older generation, and the views and values they still hold true, begin to disappear, the younger generation will usher in a less racist mentality as will their children after them. This will continue as the culture progresses farther down the road towards Individualism.
And, as for the link, don't believe everything you see on TV. TV is for entertainment purposes and any kind of show such as that is going to overplay whatever it is they are reporting about and blow everything way out of porportion. It's not representative of people's actual opinions when scare tactics are obviously used.
Enjoy your TV. No more Walking Dead, but at least Game of Thrones has started  |
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augustine
Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:38 am Post subject: |
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I still don't quite understand what you're trying to get at, war eagle. What further information are you looking to find by comparing individualistic countries to collectivist countries? I don't find your comparisons very apt, especially when you've consistently used an Alabama/Mississippi vs Korea model to compare degrees of "racism" between the southern US and Korea. That term has been thrown about haphazardly in this thread, and those two states do not comprise the entire south at all, and are widely known for being two of the most undereducated and backwards states in the nation.
What the hell is this "culture" we're discussing, anyway? What is there to understand? Personally, I don't like the vast majority of "culture" anywhere, because it's a stupid word that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
If we were talking about understanding a countries' history, I figure we'd just use the word "history." Are we talking about Korean dramas, K-pop, the prevalence of prostitution here, work environments, suicides, drinking habits, people living with their parents until they're married, couples acting like babies around each other, men carrying purses, mini skirts ( ), hongdae hipsters, plastic surgery culture, inefficient police officers, etc.?
The "culture" part of just about every society these days is usually skin deep, no matter where you go, and it's hyped as hell in Korea; so what exactly makes you think that it's important, or useful to understand? It's generally nonsense, it doesn't define the individuals trapped within it, more than it controls them and injects some vapid sense of value/nationalistic purpose within the phonies who choose to view it as something important or relevant. Just about all of the westernized Koreans (mostly young women) I've come to know, do not like their own culture to a large degree. There is huge gap between young and old here and I agree that things are changing for the better. But this "trying to understand Korean culture" is a complete waste of time, IMO. Look around, observe, that's it. Their friends have committed suicide, they know they work too much, they like western stuff more than their own and realize they're being screwed over in a lot of ways. That's the "culture" of people who understand what is actually going on here. Korea specific, I'm equally not as fond of American culture, but I think you're playing games with yourself. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| augustine wrote: |
I still don't quite understand what you're trying to get at, war eagle. What further information are you looking to find by comparing individualistic countries to collectivist countries? I don't find your comparisons very apt, especially when you've consistently used an Alabama/Mississippi vs Korea model to compare degrees of "racism" between the southern US and Korea. That term has been thrown about haphazardly in this thread, and those two states do not comprise the entire south at all, and are widely known for being two of the most undereducated and backwards states in the nation.
What the hell is this "culture" we're discussing, anyway? What is there to understand? Personally, I don't like the vast majority of "culture" anywhere, because it's a stupid word that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
If we were talking about understanding a countries' history, I figure we'd just use the word "history." Are we talking about Korean dramas, K-pop, the prevalence of prostitution here, work environments, suicides, drinking habits, people living with their parents until they're married, couples acting like babies around each other, men carrying purses, mini skirts (), hongdae hipsters, plastic surgery culture, inefficient police officers, etc.?
The "culture" part of just about every society these days is usually skin deep, no matter where you go, and it's hyped as hell in Korea; so what exactly makes you think that it's important, or useful to understand? |
I'm not commenting on the Southern US again. It was meant as an example to combat a poster's comment and is not central to the main idea of this thread.
Culture is a stupid word that doesn't mean anything anymore? I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I'm sure Anthropology would disagree with you there.
If you choose not to want to learn about and understand others' cultures, then that's your right. You could have answered the title of the thread "Want to learn more about Korean culture?" with a simple "No" and have been done with it. However, as for your laundry list of things that are "wrong" with Korea, you might understand why things are that way if you took time to better understand the concepts of individualism vs. collectivism, the central theme to this thread. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| joesp wrote: |
| slowly closing in on themselves as they age, regardless of the happiness it brings them or fails to. |
If someone is happy, then something must be wrong. Only a fool walks around with a smile on his face.
That is the Korean mindset.
One look at the North tells you what naturally happens to koreans when left to their own devices. Abject misery.
I've always been intrigued by Korean culture because it is so bizarre and different to our own. I'm just not sure there's anything of value in there to contribute to the world. |
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augustine
Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| augustine wrote: |
I still don't quite understand what you're trying to get at, war eagle. What further information are you looking to find by comparing individualistic countries to collectivist countries? I don't find your comparisons very apt, especially when you've consistently used an Alabama/Mississippi vs Korea model to compare degrees of "racism" between the southern US and Korea. That term has been thrown about haphazardly in this thread, and those two states do not comprise the entire south at all, and are widely known for being two of the most undereducated and backwards states in the nation.
What the hell is this "culture" we're discussing, anyway? What is there to understand? Personally, I don't like the vast majority of "culture" anywhere, because it's a stupid word that doesn't really mean anything anymore.
If we were talking about understanding a countries' history, I figure we'd just use the word "history." Are we talking about Korean dramas, K-pop, the prevalence of prostitution here, work environments, suicides, drinking habits, people living with their parents until they're married, couples acting like babies around each other, men carrying purses, mini skirts (), hongdae hipsters, plastic surgery culture, inefficient police officers, etc.?
The "culture" part of just about every society these days is usually skin deep, no matter where you go, and it's hyped as hell in Korea; so what exactly makes you think that it's important, or useful to understand? |
I'm not commenting on the Southern US again. It was meant as an example to combat a poster's comment and is not central to the main idea of this thread.
Culture is a stupid word that doesn't mean anything anymore? I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I'm sure Anthropology would disagree with you there.
If you choose not to want to learn about and understand others' cultures, then that's your right. You could have answered the title of the thread "Want to learn more about Korean culture?" with a simple "No" and have been done with it. However, as for your laundry list of things that are "wrong" with Korea, you might understand why things are that way if you took time to better understand the concepts of individualism vs. collectivism, the central theme to this thread. |
You aren't getting it. The individualism vs collectivism thing isn't that difficult to understand. It's fairly straight forward if you've spent enough time in and around both. You can see how different people act in both environments and say, "alright, I basically get it".
My question to you is, what is this culture you're trying to understand? You can't even define it yourself. It's mostly a bunch of nonsense to begin with. How are you defining it? To most Koreans, their "culture" is them burying their heads in their Samsung galaxy S3, hanging out with their family, doing the holiday thing (when there is one), trying to get laid or find a bf/gf, taking pictures of their food, shopping, going out to eat, getting sloshed with their friends and whatever else you want to ad to it. And people do all of those things in the US and every other developed nation.
What culture are you trying to understand here? If we're talking language, OK. History, OK. But the rest of it is a bunch of minutia and random what-people-do-everywhere stuff. It's so global now anyway, I don't even know wtf culture even is. It's mostly stupid stuff like TV shows, music, dancing, shopping, interactive stuff to waste time and acquire goods, and going out to eat and drink with family and friends. And that's culture. And it's a little different in various places, but basically the same. Some are more collectivist, others more individualistic. It's pretty simple, actually.
You can't even remotely define what you're trying to understand. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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heres what i think war-e and you can correct me if im wrong.
you married to a korean woman.
at first it was really fantastic and you loved her little quirks.
but as time went by, you realised that she is extremely immature and very very irrational.
you began to realise that it was virtually impossible to have any kind of real adult or meaningful conversation or argument with her.
you also began to realise that it was almost impossible to talk over any problems/concerns about your relationship etc. because she took everything you said as a personal attack or was just being very irrational.
maybe everyday korea was getting under your skin but when you approached your wife about this, she didnt take it at all well and saw it as a personal insult.
you began to feel a distance between you and some isolation.
finally, you tried to go to a 'place' in your mind where you accepted korea for all of its faults because if you didnt, youd end up doing something you regret for example being violent or breaking up with your wife - which you dont want.
finally finally, you started this thread because if you can convince others, you may convince yourself.
and theres nothing wrong with that |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree, racism is generally a bad thing. However, you have to see that the end result produces what some cultures percieve as benefits, i.e. keeping a pure bloodline and bringing its people closer together/united to fight against the common enemy. These are things that were very important and played a much bigger role in Korea over the last 4,000 years. This is, again, also a trait of a collectivist culture. |
No, it's not. Many leaders have used the old "pure blood" or some variant to promote hatred towards others. If you think that is an exclusive trait to collectivist culture then you are wrong.
| Quote: |
| And, as for the link, don't believe everything you see on TV. TV is for entertainment purposes and any kind of show such as that is going to overplay whatever it is they are reporting about and blow everything way out of porportion. It's not representative of people's actual opinions when scare tactics are obviously used. |
The link also provides links to newspaper stories portraying foreigners in a negative way.
Your dismissal of tv as an effective way of influencing peoples beliefs and actions are unbelievable and where your point of view tips over into being so biased you no longer see the truth.
It's good that you think your understanding of Korean culture has improved your life, but all I see is a poster who has started making excuses for problems. Why not start looking for solutions instead? |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
you married to a woman.
at first it was really fantastic and you loved her little quirks.
but as time went by, you realised that she is extremely immature and very very irrational.
you began to realise that it was virtually impossible to have any kind of real adult or meaningful conversation or argument with her.
you also began to realise that it was almost impossible to talk over any problems/concerns about your relationship etc. because she took everything you said as a personal attack or was just being very irrational. |
Fixed. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| augustine wrote: |
You aren't getting it. The individualism vs collectivism thing isn't that difficult to understand. It's fairly straight forward if you've spent enough time in and around both. You can see how different people act in both environments and say, "alright, I basically get it".
My question to you is, what is this culture you're trying to understand? You can't even define it yourself. It's mostly a bunch of nonsense to begin with. How are you defining it? To most Koreans, their "culture" is them burying their heads in their Samsung galaxy S3, hanging out with their family, doing the holiday thing (when there is one), trying to get laid or find a bf/gf, taking pictures of their food, shopping, going out to eat, getting sloshed with their friends and whatever else you want to ad to it. And people do all of those things in the US and every other developed nation.
What culture are you trying to understand here? If we're talking language, OK. History, OK. But the rest of it is a bunch of minutia and random what-people-do-everywhere stuff. It's so global now anyway, I don't even know wtf culture even is. It's mostly stupid stuff like TV shows, music, dancing, shopping, interactive stuff to waste time and acquire goods, and going out to eat and drink with family and friends. And that's culture. And it's a little different in various places, but basically the same. Some are more collectivist, others more individualistic. It's pretty simple, actually.
You can't even remotely define what you're trying to understand. |
First of all, maybe I should I titled the thread "Want to better understand Korean culture? I never implied that if you are knowlegable about C vs. I then you will understand every aspect of Korean society. There is no one general principle that can account for all of the habits and nuances of a given population. I didn't think people would assume that.
However, it goes beyond language and history. Can knowledge on the subject explain why we listen to K-pop and not K-smooth jazz? Hardly. But, it can help people to understand many of the questions they ask on Dave's and help people know how to better deal with their co-workers:
suicide: Young people, who have enormous pressure to perform well on their SATs, coupled with the intrinsic values of shame, guilt and family honor, are under an immense amount of pressure. "Cultural tradition of filial obligation is not congruent with the increasingly competitive, specialized labor market of the modern era," say Ben Park and David Lester, 2 PhDs of Psychology, when talking about suicide in Korea in their book Suicide in Asia: Causes and Prevention.
alcohol - "People with a collectivistic world view approach alcohol use in intuitive and global ways," (Beyler and Schmeck, 1992). "Drinking alcohol in Korea, a collectivist culture (my own words, they comment on this in the sentence or 2 before), is considered to be a group action. There is always social pressure involved on occasions of drinking and refusing someone's offer may be considered "anti-group" behavior...... Korean adults are likely to underestimate the negative effects of alcohol consumption and have positive attitudes towards drinking alcohol," Kim, H. K., Choi, J. H., Lee, S. H., &Kwak, I. H. (1999). Recognition status of early at-risk alcohol intake. Journal of Korean Academy of Family Medicine.
prosituition and marriage - In collectivistic cultures in general, starting a couple is a decision taken by the elders. It is based on arrangements which fulfill the families� desires, and it is a duty for the individuals. Emotional well-being, love and sexuality are less valued aspects in the life of a couple in collectivistic cultures. Psychological intimacy and sharing in a couple is a more important source of marital satisfaction and well-being in individualistic in comparison to collectivistic cultures (Ting-Toomey, 1991).
We could go on and on. But, I hope you get the idea now.
| le-paul wrote: |
heres what i think war-e and you can correct me if im wrong.
you married to a korean woman.... followed by a bunch of b/s |
I won't dignify this with a response except to say you couldn't be further from the truth.
| Seoulman69 wrote: |
Your dismissal of tv as an effective way of influencing peoples beliefs and actions are unbelievable and where your point of view tips over into being so biased you no longer see the truth.
It's good that you think your understanding of Korean culture has improved your life, but all I see is a poster who has started making excuses for problems. Why not start looking for solutions instead? |
I never dismissed tv as an effective way to influence people's beliefs. TV can be very powerful. But, if it is in fact influencing people's beliefs, then the argument can be made that those beliefs were not there to begin with. Rather, it took the scare tactics of certain individuals to "force" people into giving their "opinions". Also, they cut out all of the responses from people that did not enforce the message they wanted to get across to the masses. Are the people who produced the show pieces of crap? Yes. Is all of Korean society that way? Well, that's where some of us differ in opinion.
Also, this was never an attemp to "make excuses" for anyone. My views on what is right or immoral have never come up in this thread, per se. If you took it that way, you should reread what I have posted. This was merely a thread to help others understand why people are the way they are. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| augustine wrote: |
You aren't getting it. The individualism vs collectivism thing isn't that difficult to understand. It's fairly straight forward if you've spent enough time in and around both. You can see how different people act in both environments and say, "alright, I basically get it".
My question to you is, what is this culture you're trying to understand? You can't even define it yourself. It's mostly a bunch of nonsense to begin with. How are you defining it? To most Koreans, their "culture" is them burying their heads in their Samsung galaxy S3, hanging out with their family, doing the holiday thing (when there is one), trying to get laid or find a bf/gf, taking pictures of their food, shopping, going out to eat, getting sloshed with their friends and whatever else you want to ad to it. And people do all of those things in the US and every other developed nation.
What culture are you trying to understand here? If we're talking language, OK. History, OK. But the rest of it is a bunch of minutia and random what-people-do-everywhere stuff. It's so global now anyway, I don't even know wtf culture even is. It's mostly stupid stuff like TV shows, music, dancing, shopping, interactive stuff to waste time and acquire goods, and going out to eat and drink with family and friends. And that's culture. And it's a little different in various places, but basically the same. Some are more collectivist, others more individualistic. It's pretty simple, actually.
You can't even remotely define what you're trying to understand. |
First of all, maybe I should I titled the thread "Want to better understand Korean culture? I never implied that if you are knowlegable about C vs. I then you will understand every aspect of Korean society. There is no one general principle that can account for all of the habits and nuances of a given population. I didn't think people would assume that.
However, it goes beyond language and history. Can knowledge on the subject explain why we listen to K-pop and not K-smooth jazz? Hardly. But, it can help people to understand many of the questions they ask on Dave's and help people know how to better deal with their co-workers:
suicide: Young people, who have enormous pressure to perform well on their SATs, coupled with the intrinsic values of shame, guilt and family honor, are under an immense amount of pressure. "Cultural tradition of filial obligation is not congruent with the increasingly competitive, specialized labor market of the modern era," say Ben Park and David Lester, 2 PhDs of Psychology, when talking about suicide in Korea in their book Suicide in Asia: Causes and Prevention.
alcohol - "People with a collectivistic world view approach alcohol use in intuitive and global ways," (Beyler and Schmeck, 1992). "Drinking alcohol in Korea, a collectivist culture (my own words, they comment on this in the sentence or 2 before), is considered to be a group action. There is always social pressure involved on occasions of drinking and refusing someone's offer may be considered "anti-group" behavior...... Korean adults are likely to underestimate the negative effects of alcohol consumption and have positive attitudes towards drinking alcohol," Kim, H. K., Choi, J. H., Lee, S. H., &Kwak, I. H. (1999). Recognition status of early at-risk alcohol intake. Journal of Korean Academy of Family Medicine.
prosituition and marriage - In collectivistic cultures in general, starting a couple is a decision taken by the elders. It is based on arrangements which fulfill the families� desires, and it is a duty for the individuals. Emotional well-being, love and sexuality are less valued aspects in the life of a couple in collectivistic cultures. Psychological intimacy and sharing in a couple is a more important source of marital satisfaction and well-being in individualistic in comparison to collectivistic cultures (Ting-Toomey, 1991).
We could go on and on. But, I hope you get the idea now.
| le-paul wrote: |
heres what i think war-e and you can correct me if im wrong.
you married to a korean woman.... followed by a bunch of b/s |
I won't dignify this with a response except to say you couldn't be further from the truth.
| Seoulman69 wrote: |
Your dismissal of tv as an effective way of influencing peoples beliefs and actions are unbelievable and where your point of view tips over into being so biased you no longer see the truth.
It's good that you think your understanding of Korean culture has improved your life, but all I see is a poster who has started making excuses for problems. Why not start looking for solutions instead? |
I never dismissed tv as an effective way to influence people's beliefs. TV can be very powerful. But, if it is in fact influencing people's beliefs, then the argument can be made that those beliefs were not there to begin with. Rather, it took the scare tactics of certain individuals to "force" people into giving their "opinions". Also, they cut out all of the responses from people that did not enforce the message they wanted to get across to the masses. Are the people who produced the show pieces of crap? Yes. Is all of Korean society that way? Well, that's where some of us differ in opinion.
Also, this was never an attemp to "make excuses" for anyone. My views on what is right or immoral have never come up in this thread, per se. If you took it that way, you should reread what I have posted. This was merely a thread to help others understand why people are the way they are. |
There's nothing you've quoted that an observant, fairly intelligent person couldn't pick up for themselves after a short time living and working in Korea.
With such understanding one can then decide who and what the progressive culture of the West or the conservative culture of the East better serve. What values do you hold and how do those values make you a better or worse person and how do those values make a better or worse culture.
I'm for progress. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:46 am Post subject: |
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I like how the OP uses examples of a collectivist mindset that all result in very negative consequences.
It seems like the only 'Korea Basher' here is War Eagle.
Also is it not also possible that a person could understand the cultural differences and yet still choose to dislike said difference? |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
I like how the OP uses examples of a collectivist mindset that all result in very negative consequences.
It seems like the only 'Korea Basher' here is War Eagle.
Also is it not also possible that a person could understand the cultural differences and yet still choose to dislike said difference? |
I used examples that are topics frequently brought up on Dave's. What I choose to talk about does not (Edit: necessarily) reflect my values/beliefs. Surely you are able to distinguish the two.
And it has already been discussed that someone can be understanding and still choose to dislike said differences. Actually, it was in the OP.
Please read before posting. |
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