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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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 Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Apologies apart from your pompsity and groundbreaking revelation that the southern US is more racist than Korea, its hard to discern what indeed you are trying to say.
People complain on Dave's because working as an English teacher in Korea for a Hagwon or PS is not easy, the stresses are numerous. Also there is the negative attitudes towards foreigners, which is not limited to an insignificant section of the populace. This can cause resentment and trying to explain it away with rubbish about being invaded a lot is a cop out. Btw Korea isn't 4,000 years old, not even close.
Now if you genuinely want to better understand Korean culture and this whole thread is not some attempt to bash English Teachers for daring to complain, learn Korean. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| People complain on Dave's because working as an English teacher in Korea for a Hagwon or PS is not easy, the stresses are numerous. Also there is the negative attitudes towards foreigners, which is not limited to an insignificant section of the populace. This can cause resentment. |
Agree 100%
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| and trying to explain it away with rubbish about being invaded a lot is a cop out. |
Nothing is trying to be "explained away". Again, this has been adressed. It is merely a way to help others understand why people are the way they are.
I never mentioned invasion.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but really. Read before you post.
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Btw Korea isn't 4,000 years old, not even close. |
Wikipedia:
The earliest known Korean pottery dates back to around 8000 BC.
The Gojoseon (Old Joseon) was founded in northern Korea and Manchuria in 2333 BC. (Which, if I have been told correctly, is the time most Koreans consider "Korea" to have been founded. Although, yes, the unification of the 3 old world kingdoms came many, many years later.)
EDIT: You could have been refering to others' attempts to explain it away with invasion. If that was the case, I apologize for the criticism. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Now if you genuinely want to better understand Korean culture and this whole thread is not some attempt to bash English Teachers for daring to complain, learn Korean. |
Bingo. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
heres what i think war-e and you can correct me if im wrong.
you married a korean woman.... followed by a bunch of b/s |
I won't dignify this with a response except to say you couldn't be further from the truth. |
Good. On this occasion, Im pleased im wrong.
I just couldnt think of any other reason why you'd defend Korean behaviour |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: |
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I know that the topics/comments brought up on Dave's can be repeated many times throughout the year/s, but within the same post, and only on pg. 6! Come on guys. It's beating a dead horse when I have to keep correcting the same mistakes over and over because people choose not to read and just post whimsically.
EDIT: or they're bored and instigating, which, while I have more respect for, I don't feel like indulging in at this time. |
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augustine
Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| I used examples that are topics frequently brought up on Dave's. What I choose to talk about does not (Edit: necessarily) reflect my values/beliefs. Surely you are able to distinguish the two. |
I think your ego is getting in the way here because you're trying to wear a veil of objectivity while inquiring about a very subjective and wide-ranging (though basic) subject, that you call "culture". I read some of the link you posted in your OP and felt basically how I did when I took undergrad sociology/psychology (and social anthropology) courses: Well... yeah, I generally always thought that was obvious, but it's nice that people are laying it down and creating terms and all that shit. The deep depths of those subjects are definitely interesting, but it's mostly pretty apparent if you're in sync with your own consciousness and the world you live in.
You started off attempting to create an objective sounding inquiry, then you made the poor comparison to the southern US, backed away, kept asking for input, got feedback you didn't like since you viewed it as negative, and you're now pleading for people to back away from posting negatively instigating comments... when no one knows what the hell you're even trying to say! Still, after six pages. Pick a side or ask a legitimate question...
Stop positing all of this superfluous crap and start asking some real questions about what you're trying to figure out for yourself as an individual, or for your family. You're just confusing the people who are responding to your posts. What, specifically, are you trying to understand about Korean culture and how it compares to other cultures? Which do you think is better and why? Form an opinion for yourself. You aren't doing sociological research, you're posting on a forum. Stop backing away and creating this fake objective wall around you, and let the people here know how you feel, and you might end up finding a decent answer... on page 14. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| augustine wrote: |
You started off attempting to create an objective sounding inquiry, then you made the poor comparison to the southern US, backed away, kept asking for input, got feedback you didn't like since you viewed it as negative, and you're now pleading for people to back away from posting negatively instigating comments... when no one knows what the hell you're even trying to say! Still, after six pages. Pick a side or ask a legitimate question...
Stop positing all of this superfluous crap and start asking some real questions about what you're trying to figure out for yourself as an individual, or for your family. You're just confusing the people who are responding to your posts. What, specifically, are you trying to understand about Korean culture and how it compares to other cultures? Which do you think is better and why? Form an opinion for yourself. You aren't doing sociological research, you're posting on a forum. Stop backing away and creating this fake objective wall around you, and let the people here know how you feel, and you might end up finding a decent answer... on page 14. |
The OP was as far as I intended to go. The rest is just, well banter.
The correlation to the South, again (oh my, how many times i say that), was simply to combat another post and not really relevant to the central topic. It was a brief derailment from the intended message which has now become a major topic of interest. If I could call "backsies", I would.
I don't need to choose a side. This thread was never designed to do such a thing. This thread was designed to get people to read the OP, not jump into a long, philosophical debate. But, I like to argue, so please, feel free to speak your minds. However, you will get nothing but objectivity from me.
At the moment, I have no questions. I am strong, though open-minded, in my beliefs, even though I haven't laid them on the table, nor will do so. |
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augustine
Joined: 08 Sep 2012
Location: México
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| I don't need to choose a side or ask any questions. This thread was never designed to do such a thing. |
Fine, no one can force you to do anything. But, you posited your opinion earlier, so why are you stopping now?
| Quote: |
| This thread was designed to get people to read the OP, not jump into a long, philosophical debate. |
Again, what are you trying to say? You created this thread to ask for other peoples' opinions, though you're intentionally excluding your own opinions? Your initial question was essentially an up for "philosophical debate" question, yet you're now excluding that from the conversation?
| Quote: |
| But, I like to argue, so please, feel free to speak your minds. However, you will get nothing but objectivity from me.. |
So, I'm free to speak my mind, Mr. Objectivity? To the guy who made multiple subjective comments about the entire southern US?
This is a joke thread. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| augustine wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| I don't need to choose a side or ask any questions. This thread was never designed to do such a thing. |
Fine, no one can force you to do anything. But, you posited your opinion earlier, so why are you stopping now? |
The only opinion I ever gave was that Korea has come a long way in regards to racism. And, not really an opinion, more of a fact. Also, the part about the Southern US is not really opinion when you look at FBI statistics/have general knowledge from growing up there.
| augustine wrote: |
| Quote: |
| This thread was designed to get people to read the OP, not jump into a long, philosophical debate. |
Again, what are you trying to say? You created this thread to ask for other peoples' opinions, though you're intentionally excluding your own opinions? Your initial question was essentially an up for "philosophical debate" question, yet you're now excluding that from the conversation? |
I never asked for opinions. What "initial question" do you speak of? So, this is not true. You seem to want to lie and deceive to start an argument.
| augustine wrote: |
| This is a joke thread. |
Door----> |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Want to "understand" Korean culture? (serious) |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
So, before you judge people, read. If you still want to judge them after that, have at it; but at least be armed with the facts before you start ranting about crap you are completely oblivious to.
TLDR:
Read about individualism vs. collectivism
I posted critically, I read, I married locally, I changed my perception
Nearly three-fourths of the world�s cultures can be described as collectivistic (Triandis, 1989)
Don�t be that guy; everybody hates that guy
P.S. If you didn't read the link or know nothing about the subject matter, please refrain from making comments. |
Ok, can you give us some examples of which judgements you believe are uninformed?
I read the examples you posted about alcohol, prostitution, and suicide. The issue I have with those is that Korean society is very aware of them. The way you are approaching this subject it seems you don't think Korean people are capable of fixing them so they shouldn't be judged negatively because of them. I personally think Korean people are capable of fixing them, and that is why I have no problem negatively judging those aspects of their society.
The reasoning was a little pathetic too, there is no way older Koreans are naive about the effects of alcohol. Too much drinking has been going on here for too long. Korean parents know what causes students to commit suicide, yet some refuse to let up on the pressure even when it's obvious the student is incapable of performing up to the expectations. I would consider prostitution more of a political and corruption issue here, not a cultural issue.
I'm not sure what your overall opinion is on Korean culture, but from what you have posted it seems to be pretty bleak. It's like you are telling us to give up on Korea improving. I think every culture can change without foreign influence for the better. Korea doesn't have to move toward Western culture to improve, it can focus on it's internal problems and manage them in a way that is true to collectivism or whatever you want to call it. |
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cabeza
Joined: 29 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Btw Korea isn't 4,000 years old, not even close. |
Wikipedia:
The earliest known Korean pottery dates back to around 8000 BC.
The Gojoseon (Old Joseon) was founded in northern Korea and Manchuria in 2333 BC. (Which, if I have been told correctly, is the time most Koreans consider "Korea" to have been founded. Although, yes, the unification of the 3 old world kingdoms came many, many years later.) |
Well, that is debatable. Apart from the fact that the entire concept of nation state as we know it today is only a few hundred years old, Gojoseon hardly matches up with Korea on a map. A pretty big chunk of the country isn't included in it. Fair enough saying that people that we would day consider to be "Koreans" started around that area and some elements of "Korean" culture were present, I don't think that qualifies as saying "Korea is 4000 years old".
Do we consider the Frankish King Clovis or the Gauls before him to have founded "France". No .Historians see them as proto-French. The lived in areas that would become France and had some French aspects. But we don't say "France is 2000 years old!" Because that is stupid. It's just part of the whole Korean idea of purity, that they have been there in their present form for thousands of years. Which may hold some kernel of truth, but Korea is not 4000 years even if they really want it to be. |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Want to "understand" Korean culture? (serious) |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Ok, can you give us some examples of which judgements you believe are uninformed?
I read the examples you posted about alcohol, prostitution, and suicide. |
You have answered your own question to an extent. I'm not going to go through the posts on Dave's to find examples where people have started ranting about issues they weren't fully knowledgeable of. I am sure everyone will agree that not every poster on Dave's makes well-informed judgements.
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
The issue I have with those is that Korean society is very aware of them. The way you are approaching this subject it seems you don't think Korean people are capable of fixing them so they shouldn't be judged negatively because of them. I personally think Korean people are capable of fixing them, and that is why I have no problem negatively judging those aspects of their society.
I'm not sure what your overall opinion is on Korean culture, but from what you have posted it seems to be pretty bleak. It's like you are telling us to give up on Korea improving. I think every culture can change without foreign influence for the better. Korea doesn't have to move toward Western culture to improve, it can focus on it's internal problems and manage them in a way that is true to collectivism or whatever you want to call it. |
Quite the opposite. I have praised Korea for its relatively quick cultural progression over the last 50 years. I have also expressed my optimism that it will continue to do so. If you choose to judge Korean society negatively, then great. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinions and the right to speak them. What bothers me, as stated in the OP, is when people express those opinions without first attempting to understand why things in Korea are different from their home countries.
| cabeza wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Btw Korea isn't 4,000 years old, not even close. |
Wikipedia:
The earliest known Korean pottery dates back to around 8000 BC.
The Gojoseon (Old Joseon) was founded in northern Korea and Manchuria in 2333 BC. (Which, if I have been told correctly, is the time most Koreans consider "Korea" to have been founded. Although, yes, the unification of the 3 old world kingdoms came many, many years later.) |
Well, that is debatable. Apart from the fact that the entire concept of nation state as we know it today is only a few hundred years old, Gojoseon hardly matches up with Korea on a map. A pretty big chunk of the country isn't included in it. Fair enough saying that people that we would day consider to be "Koreans" started around that area and some elements of "Korean" culture were present, I don't think that qualifies as saying "Korea is 4000 years old".
Do we consider the Frankish King Clovis or the Gauls before him to have founded "France". No .Historians see them as proto-French. The lived in areas that would become France and had some French aspects. But we don't say "France is 2000 years old!" Because that is stupid. It's just part of the whole Korean idea of purity, that they have been there in their present form for thousands of years. Which may hold some kernel of truth, but Korea is not 4000 years even if they really want it to be. |
I agree. Maybe I should have said the Korean people have a 4000 year history instead of Korea, the country. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Want to "understand" Korean culture? (serious) |
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| War Eagle wrote: |
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
Ok, can you give us some examples of which judgements you believe are uninformed?
I read the examples you posted about alcohol, prostitution, and suicide. |
You have answered your own question to an extent. I'm not going to go through the posts on Dave's to find examples where people have started ranting about issues they weren't fully knowledgeable of. I am sure everyone will agree that not every poster on Dave's makes well-informed judgements.
| hiamnotcool wrote: |
The issue I have with those is that Korean society is very aware of them. The way you are approaching this subject it seems you don't think Korean people are capable of fixing them so they shouldn't be judged negatively because of them. I personally think Korean people are capable of fixing them, and that is why I have no problem negatively judging those aspects of their society.
I'm not sure what your overall opinion is on Korean culture, but from what you have posted it seems to be pretty bleak. It's like you are telling us to give up on Korea improving. I think every culture can change without foreign influence for the better. Korea doesn't have to move toward Western culture to improve, it can focus on it's internal problems and manage them in a way that is true to collectivism or whatever you want to call it. |
Quite the opposite. I have praised Korea for its relatively quick cultural progression over the last 50 years. I have also expressed my optimism that it will continue to do so. If you choose to judge Korean society negatively, then great. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinions and the right to speak them. What bothers me, as stated in the OP, is when people express those opinions without first attempting to understand why things in Korea are different from their home countries.
| cabeza wrote: |
| War Eagle wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Btw Korea isn't 4,000 years old, not even close. |
Wikipedia:
The earliest known Korean pottery dates back to around 8000 BC.
The Gojoseon (Old Joseon) was founded in northern Korea and Manchuria in 2333 BC. (Which, if I have been told correctly, is the time most Koreans consider "Korea" to have been founded. Although, yes, the unification of the 3 old world kingdoms came many, many years later.) |
Well, that is debatable. Apart from the fact that the entire concept of nation state as we know it today is only a few hundred years old, Gojoseon hardly matches up with Korea on a map. A pretty big chunk of the country isn't included in it. Fair enough saying that people that we would day consider to be "Koreans" started around that area and some elements of "Korean" culture were present, I don't think that qualifies as saying "Korea is 4000 years old".
Do we consider the Frankish King Clovis or the Gauls before him to have founded "France". No .Historians see them as proto-French. The lived in areas that would become France and had some French aspects. But we don't say "France is 2000 years old!" Because that is stupid. It's just part of the whole Korean idea of purity, that they have been there in their present form for thousands of years. Which may hold some kernel of truth, but Korea is not 4000 years even if they really want it to be. |
I agree. Maybe I should have said the Korean people have a 4000 year history instead of Korea, the country. |
How do you know that they don't understand? |
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War Eagle
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Want to "understand" Korean culture? (serious) |
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| atwood wrote: |
| How do you know that they don't understand? |
I'm not sure what you mean by this. But, I guess there's no way for certain to know that they haven't studied the subject, but choose to ignore what they have learned.
If I ask the question "what's 2 plus 2" and someone tells me 5, is it safe to say they don't know how to do math, or should I consider the fact they do, but choose to ignore it?
When people talk about this "unique place" called Korea because of its xenophobic ways or its adult children who live with their family until they are married or its......., is it safe to say they don't have an accurate understanding of world culture or should I consider the fact they do, but choose to ignore it?
Last edited by War Eagle on Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| How is criticizing xenophobia a misunderstanding of culture? There are Koreans who are against Korean xenophobia. Do those people don't understand Korean culture? |
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