| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:56 pm Post subject: Man gets 1st degree murder charge for killing teen burglars |
 |
|
The state of Minnesota has charged a man with 1st degree murder for killing two unarmed burglars, shooting them multiple times.
Good! you can't just shoot and kill somebody because they're doing something you dislike even if they are committing a felony. What if the person trying to enter your home has dementia or some mental condition and doesn't know where he is at or particularly what he is doing?
If it's assault it might be a different matter or if the person who's home is being burgled is very frightened
http://news.yahoo.com/minn-man-gets-most-severe-charge-teens-deaths-200212945.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Man gets 1st degree murder charge for killing teen burgl |
|
|
| young_clinton wrote: |
The state of Minnesota has charged a man with 1st degree murder for killing two unarmed burglars, shooting them multiple times.
Good! you can't just shoot and kill somebody because they're doing something you dislike even if they are committing a felony. What if the person trying to enter your home has dementia or some mental condition and doesn't know where he is at or particularly what he is doing?
If it's assault it might be a different matter or if the person who's home is being burgled is very frightened
http://news.yahoo.com/minn-man-gets-most-severe-charge-teens-deaths-200212945.html |
You may have a point, but there is no way I can get behind a charge of First Degree Murder. Negligent homicide, maybe. Heck, I'd probably just keep it in civil court at the Wrongful Death level.
Gun owners need to be responsible, but so should criminals. If you enter someone else's house with intent to commit crime, you should forfeit the right to not be killed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
I agree... 2nd degree murder is probably more accurate (inflamed passions and fears and all that).
People with guns need to be held responsible for the death they inflict over minor property crimes (burglary and theft).
The last time I looked, burglary and/or theft weren't capital offenses with execution as a punishment.
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:24 am Post subject: Re: Man gets 1st degree murder charge for killing teen burgl |
|
|
| young_clinton wrote: |
| Good! you can't just shoot and kill somebody because they're doing something you dislike even if they are committing a felony. What if the person trying to enter your home has dementia or some mental condition and doesn't know where he is at or particularly what he is doing? |
I suppose that we should then sit down with all intruders and have tea with them first and find out what their purpose is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Although I'm not sure if you guys read the whole article, I might settle for 2nd degree murder, being that he might have been outraged.
The shooting though was heinous. He shot one of the burglars in the head in cold blood after the teen was wounded. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| If the teens didn't break in the guy's home multiple times there would have been no issue. Dumb kids. If a bunch of drugged up kids broke into my home multiple times, I'd be very tempted to blow a hole in their heads too. And I'm Canadian. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| What's so hard about the concept of "If you don't want to be shot dead, don't break into people's houses"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ttompatz wrote: |
People with guns need to be held responsible for the death they inflict over minor property crimes (burglary and theft).
|
I think he was charged with murder because he killed people, not because he used a gun to do it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
He also told investigators he fired "a good clean finishing shot" into Kifer's head as she was gasping for air, the complaint said.
Prosecutors have said an audio recording Smith made of the shootings includes him telling a wounded Kifer "you're dying," before firing the final shot. |
This is likely why he was charged with murder. Assuming the above is accurate, he very clearly crossed the line between self-defense and summary execution. Gun advocates should not defend behavior like this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| What's so hard about the concept of "If you don't want to be shot dead, don't break into people's houses"? |
What's wrong with letting congress make the laws, police enforce the laws and the courts mete out the punishment?
When did burglary become a capital offense?
These people don't have phones and can't call 9.1.1?
Judge, jury and executioner for a simple property crime.
Murder, plain and simple.
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Noliving
Joined: 01 Apr 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Man gets 1st degree murder charge for killing teen burgl |
|
|
| young_clinton wrote: |
The state of Minnesota has charged a man with 1st degree murder for killing two unarmed burglars, shooting them multiple times.
Good! you can't just shoot and kill somebody because they're doing something you dislike even if they are committing a felony. What if the person trying to enter your home has dementia or some mental condition and doesn't know where he is at or particularly what he is doing?
If it's assault it might be a different matter or if the person who's home is being burgled is very frightened
http://news.yahoo.com/minn-man-gets-most-severe-charge-teens-deaths-200212945.html |
I disagree if you break into my house I will use force to defend myself. If a person is trying to force their way into my house and I have a gun you are getting shot.
| ttompatz wrote: |
When did burglary become a capital offense? |
A long time ago.
| ttompatz wrote: |
These people don't have phones and can't call 9.1.1? |
And how was this guy suppose to do that while down in his basement with no phone and cell phone?
| ttompatz wrote: |
Judge, jury and executioner for a simple property crime.
Murder, plain and simple.
. |
A simple property crime is someone stealing you car when your not in the car at the mall shopping. Breaking into someones house while they are home is not a simple property crime. Carjacking someone is not a simple property crime.
If you break into someone's house and they are home it is a given that lethal force can and will be used against you.
If someone breaks into your house and you are in the same room as them and they don't leave what are you suppose to do? Just sit back and call 911 and wait? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When your home gets broken into lets talk. The immediate utter fear one has is indescribable.If you have a family multiply that fear exponentially. Some of us have this misconception that if you have a gun, you are this cool and calm person because you have a lethal weapon. You simply have no idea what the person is capable of, even if they appear to be without a weapon. I'd rather face an intruder with a knife than an 'unarmed' Navy SEAL to put that into some perspective...even if I have a gun.
If the tape sounds right, it sounds tantamount to an execution, I'll grant that but the emotional state of someone invading your home can NOT be discounted.
A charge maybe but 1st degree. No. With the crime rate in America being near or at the top of the highest in the industrial world, I can understand. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Noliving
Joined: 01 Apr 2010
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Quote: |
He also told investigators he fired "a good clean finishing shot" into Kifer's head as she was gasping for air, the complaint said.
Prosecutors have said an audio recording Smith made of the shootings includes him telling a wounded Kifer "you're dying," before firing the final shot. |
This is likely why he was charged with murder. Assuming the above is accurate, he very clearly crossed the line between self-defense and summary execution. Gun advocates should not defend behavior like this. |
No gun advocate has defended this behavior.
As someone who has a permit to carry in Minnesota I have an understanding of what the self defense laws are, these laws apply to any weapon type including your bare hands.
The part I'm going to be talking about is when force is being used.
When you are using force in the state of Minnesota you have to use the minimum amount of reasonable force to get out of the situation. So lets say for example someone comes at me and I shoot them in the leg and they stop coming at me and they have no weapon on them. Any shot I take after that will not be considered justified under Minnesota law and not only that but you are legally required to give them medical assistance, that assistance can just simply be call 911 for an ambulance and just leave. Now lets say I shoot them in the leg but this person keeps coming at me, if you have the ability to escape without taking another shot you are required by law to do that because the argument is going to be made that you the uninjured party can outrun the injured one. Minnesota has a Castle doctrine that pretty much means that you are not required to flee your house in order to use lethal force however though once your attacker is seriously wounded to the point that they don't pose a real threat anymore you are required to cease and desist in using such force. Any continuation of such force will result in homicide charges being charged against you.
In this man's case what happened was he heard a disturbance while in his house and grabbed his firearm in his basement, keep in mind his home had been invade previously so obviously he would be on the edge, the male teenager started to come down the stairs and the man shot him a couple of times at the top of the stairs. The teen obviously fell down the stairs, when he landed at the base of the stairs the homeowner than shot him again in the head at basically point blank range. Minutes later the teenage girl started to come down the stairs and the same thing happens, the home owners shot her and she fell down the stairs. When she "landed" at the base of the stairs she apparently began to laugh, at that point the homeowners mini-14 rifle jammed and he pulled out a .22 revolver and shot her multiple times in the chest. At this point the home owner begins to drag what he believes is her body right next to her cousin's body. At that point the homeowner realized that although she is unconscious she is in fact still alive, at this point he puts his pistol underneath her chin and finishes her off with what he calls a good clean shot, he later makes statements claiming it was to put her out of her misery.
Things that further hurt the homeowner legally is the fact that he waited an entire day to contact law enforcement, in fact he had a neighbor contact law enforcement, reason for this he claims is because didn't want to bother the police on Thanksgiving and also he wanted to find out what his legal rights are before telling law enforcement.
Due to the fact that the threat of violence at that point was considered over when those teenagers landed at the base of the stairs because they were basically just laying there in a daze any physical action he would take against them that would cause severe injury or death would be considered unjustified, however if the teenagers would have died from the gun shoot wounds they sustained when at the top of the stairs their deaths would be considered justifiable.
Based off of how this went down I do believe that this is in fact murder and is not self defense but I don't agree that this is 1st degree murder. This looks more like 2nd degree murder at most.
As the Sheriff in this case said: the law doesn't permit you to execute somebody once a threat is gone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^^^ another good example why gun toting Americans should NOT be allowed to travel to, emigrate to or be allowed to reside in to civilized countries.
. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| When did burglary become a capital offense? |
Neither is rape, kidnapping, or armed robbery, but we maintain the right of self-defense in all of those cases.
I firmly believe that the right to not put their safety into the hands of the criminal when defending one's family trumps the right of the criminal to not be shot. You don't know what they could be packing or what their intent is. That fog of war, should favor the innocent.
Now in this case, the execution shot might well be murder.
ttompatz, you do realize there have been plenty of times where people have broken into someone's home and either murdered, raped, or kidnapped (or a combination of all 3 ending in torture and dismemberment), right? What are we supposed to do? Wait until they pull out the gun? Fight hand to hand against some 6'4" 250 lb. ex-linebacker? Plead with his meth/PCP addled mind to be sensible? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
