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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:11 pm Post subject: Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother |
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Figure this book deserves a thread.
I've put the book on order (none of that fancy Kindle stuff for me). Anyone else checked it out? |
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West Coast Tatterdemalion
Joined: 31 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Completely disagree with the method. Exploiting your children to satiate your own ego is unacceptable. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| West Coast Tatterdemalion wrote: |
| Completely disagree with the method. Exploiting your children to satiate your own ego is unacceptable. |
So what would be the alternative? |
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West Coast Tatterdemalion
Joined: 31 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, I don't know...maybe take the exploitation part out of the equation for starters. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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Okay...and then what?
Would you favor a directed approach or one that allowed considerable choice? Which do you think would be more effective in allowing your child to maximize their potential? Is when your child says "stop" the time to stop? Which is the better approach to self-esteem? Is self-esteem the most important thing?
Obviously these are at some level individual things.
How would you say the author exploited her children? I'm sure she would counter that what she did was for their betterment, that letting them do whatever so she didn't have any stress after work would be exploitation of a different sort.
I mean, give me something more than a one-line platitude. Just saying "no" is not reason enough. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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She forbade them from playing anything other than the piano and violin. What if they had other interests? What if their skills would have been better used on other instruments?
I find her methods limiting. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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I'm reading a fictional/historical novel right now. The central character is still just a wee laddie puke, but his mother has great plans for him and is currently busy teaching him how not to get his ass handed to him.
I'm guessing the story is better with her in it. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Let me ask you two things SR-
A) what constitutes abuse?
and B) did your parents treat you like that?
I'm a little disappointed that you would buy into this woman's BS. Chinese weren't always raising kids the way she prescribes. Its more like a fad than an effective parenting measure. |
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hondaicivic
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Daegu, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Why isn't Amy Chua being investigated by child welfare services?.... |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| hondaicivic wrote: |
| Why isn't Amy Chua being investigated by child welfare services?.... |
Because she is rich |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Before he left the farm to go play baseball, Ty Cobb's father had these great words for him- "Don't come home a failure". Ty Cobb went on to be one of baseball's best hitters and worst people.
First off, where Chua is wrong-
1)Let them choose their instrument! 3 hours a day maybe. But in an instrument of their choice. Chua says drums promote drug use. Fine, but mandolin and banjo promote good ol Southern Gospel. Organ promotes Gospel. Not exactly drug use there. And the cello sounds better than the violin.
2)Play some sports- Too many intangible benefits. Even the most cold-blooded tiger mom should support golf, racquetball, and tennis.
3)Games are important- Game theory is essential, as are its problem solving aspects. Sure many games are crap, but some do have value. Who can argue with chess?
4)Not all TV is trash. Sure I might limit them to PBS and Star Trek and only per-recorded with the commercials erased, but there is still some value. Sounds cheesy but I think watching Star Trek TNG is one of the best things you can do for a child's development.
Where Chua is right-
1)Believe your child is great and capable of excellence
2)Don't condone failure.
3)Don't allow them to get away with slipshod mediocrity and deception. People are railing at her for the birthday card incident, but I think she was right. If you give your mother a 20 second drawn birthday card that looks like garbage, especially if you are capable of more, that should be called out. Family is important, you give them your best.
4)Don't let time win. Stay up till midnight with the kid working at it.
5)Things are more fun when you're good at them. Winning feels better than losing. Confidence builds success and vice-versa
6)Children are mentally stronger than we give them credit for
7)Trust in the long-term payoff. Yes, they may hate you from 13-25. But you have to be willing to risk/accept that in the hope that it makes them better. You also have to trust that they will develop the maturity to understand why you did what you did.
8)Do try to live up to a family legacy and build upon it. Having a family go from upper-middle class one generation to poverty because Jr. smokes to much ganja is a tragedy. Some of us come from pretty remarkable families. We should endeavor to live up to their legacy. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Let me ask you two things SR-
A) what constitutes abuse?
and B) did your parents treat you like that?
I'm a little disappointed that you would buy into this woman's BS. Chinese weren't always raising kids the way she prescribes. Its more like a fad than an effective parenting measure. |
Abuse would be A) The standard fare of beatings and extreme verbal humiliation. B)Neglect and an unwillingness to make tough choices and demand the best from my children.
Abuse can run both ways.
My parents were fairly disciplinarian from the start. They were clever- they realized that spankings weren't really working because I'd just kind of shrug it off so they put me to work on doing manual labor on our farm. That did the trick.
Later on they became generally indifferent. As long as I passed I was fine.
The reason I kind of am wondering about Chua's methods, at least the more rote and disciplinarian parts, is the disparity between my talents and my grades and where I ended up in university. This used to not bother me at all, however as I get older....
Bear with me, this will be a long-winded post skip if you (or any reader) want to, its just "where I'm coming from".
To give an example of my level of talent- in my High School we had the Humanities program which was 100 of the best and brightest of our school. It was a college prep class that was more difficult than anything I encountered at undergrad in either the U-M or EMU. Most of the kids went on to the U-M, others to Stanford/Duke, a few to Ivies. For second semester I was at the top of all 100 students in all four subjects (Music History, Art History, History, Literature). Up until then I was considered "dumb" by my peers because of social immaturity, and I wasn't in AP Calc (I'm not a math guy). Needless to say it was kind of satisfying having those kids come asking me to help tutor them.
There was another reason I was considered dumb: the previous year I was in danger of being held back because of bad grades- I never did my homework and my parents didn't get upset if I got Es. Why do homework if your parents don't care? Just go play video games or hang out with friends. Not to blame my parents- What they've given far exceeds any mistakes they made, just I wish they'd been a bit harsher.
The point is I should have gone to an Ivy or at least a top public. Math was a strong subject for me until 3rd grade when I was sent to a series of private schools emphasizing my "individual talents" (Waldorf School, "Gifted" Private School). By the time it was all over my math skills had deteriorated significantly and never really recovered.
Now I am okay with how things have turned out- the "life experience" is worth it, if only because there is still a path to success. Contrary to my online persona, my in-person persona is really laid-back, and I'm great at making friends and am a social butterfly. My online persona reflects the intelligent part that I used to have, before "life experience" chilled me out when it came to dealing with people. As you can see though I could have been pretty nasty (I'd probably be 10X as worse), so I'm thankful I got "social education" and wasn't so driven.
However because of the results of permissive parenting and individually focused education, certain other doors were closed.
That's why I agree with Ms. Chua's premise that you must maximize your child's talent, even forcefully if you can. They can have regrets and frustration that they weren't pushed as well.
Another reason I subscribe more to the "just get a good job" theory more these days is that I was raised through the schools, and I think most of us were, to regard our jobs as a reflection of ourselves. One should work at an non-profit to help people. Work should be fun, not boring. Don't get stuck in an office, etc. etc. Strangely the same people advocating this position will turn around and say "don't let your job define you."
I agree with that. Case in point- my father. Ran a payroll company. I thought he liked it because he seems like a boring bean counter. Actually he hated it and found that there was no reward in it. But what running that company DID allow him to do was generate the income necessary to pursue his hobbies. Maybe a lame job as an accountant or engineer or lab rat isn't so bad if it lets you have season tickets or your dream car or a boat or to vacation where you like or contribute generously to charity or whatever. It's awfully hard to be charitable when you're flipping burgers.
Lastly, my family has quite a history of success and as I get older it is getting more important for me to live up to that history. From a bank president grandfather who developed much of Bay City, to a grandmother who went before Billy Durant himself to propose aerial photography of GM facilities (a woman in the 1950s doing this!) to a father that has work he's done on wikipedia...My parents seem fine with me being "who I am", but I wonder about the lack of concern for continuing our family's success.
So that's where I'm coming from with the whole family angle...
So that's where I'm coming from when it comes to family history.... |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I read that Asian parents insist that their kids only play piano or violin (as opposed to other instruments) because pianists and violinists solo, which means more money than the other instruments in the orchestra. Its about the earning potential. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Its about the earning potential. |
And bragging rights. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Chinese parents also spend a lot of time with the child. Even when the child is doing homework one of the parents will sit with him or her helping them. I think the time quality time that Chinese parents spend with their child is what is important. Discipline is NOT abuse. Most Chinese children also get a lot of "spoiling" as well as discipline. |
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